Goc

by That'll Cheech You on Jan 1, 2009 8:55 PM PST Comment 8 comments

I just saw BawLa's post in my recent Grier article, and I thought that I would put it up as a fanpost so that it gets a little more discussion. As your Admins, Mr. Plank, Mr. K and I appreciate when you put work into something... we'll reward the good stuff.

Thanks BawLa, I'll answer your questions below...

Goc
I think we need to have a formal discussion about Goc because some things need to get cleared up about him. And I would like to preface by saying a few things. Firstly, I like Goc. Secondly, I am not attacking you when I say any of this. I am genuinely interested in having a discussion about Goc with you and I value your opinion. You seem to be one of the bloggers on this site that has more substance to everything you say. With that out of the way I can get to the heart of this post.

First, Goc is not one of the young players on the team. Since he is 25 I can let it slide, but since this is his 4th season as a Shark I personally don’t view him as one of the young bucks on the team. Lets take a trip back to the year before the lockout – the 2003-2004 season. Goc played well in the playoffs the year before the lockout. He scored a sweet game winner against the Avalance to secure the series (game 6). It was during this year that my eyes opened really wide to Marcel Goc. After the lockout year, I looked to him to see if he would improve and become a better hockey player. Now fast-forward to today, err just before this season. He hasn’t posted a single positive season in terms of +/-. He hasn’t scored double digit goals in any season of his career. He doesn’t fight, he rarely checks hard and he’s not a PK specialist. He’s not much of a center either when you consider he hasn’t posted above 15 assist in a season ever. When it comes down to it, his only real skill is in the faceoff circle. That makes him more of a “filler” than someone like Plihal for example. Now you could argue that since he doesn’t play with high scoring line-mates it is too hard for him to go positive or score points. But in a season like this one, where we have more depth than ever, he is just plugging right along his career line, currently sitting at -4, with 1 goal and 5 assists. “Improved play” doesn’t mean much unless if you get the job done.

Mitchell has only played one season, so comparing his faceoff percentage to Goc’s is not really a good analysis. And even if Mitchell never posts a higher FO% than Goc I would still rather have Michell centering my third line than Goc any day of the week. And I have seen more than 5 times as much Goc in terms of games played. Michell cal flat out play hockey. He has showed me more heart, leadership and hockey skills in one season than Goc has his entire career. Michell’s skating ability alone makes him more of an impact player than Goc will ever be.

Plihal on the other hand, is playing in his first season this year. Sure he had a cup-of-tea last year in his call-up, and I thought he stood out. This year Plihal is doing everything I wanted Rismiller to do and more. He checks and skates equal or greater than that of Goc. He kills penalties well. He already has more points than Goc in 4 less minutes per game than Goc. And again this is Plihal’s first real season. I would much rather like to see Plihal develop than Goc. Goc has had his time and hasn’t done much with it. You talk about Goc’s improved play but I really think he is just exerting more energy because he feels Michell nipping at his back. I’ll wager that if Plihal plays as much time with us as Goc has, that he will be a far better player overall.

If we do keep Goc, I am totally cool with it. I think he has some value on the checking line. But not many other places. A Shelly-Goc-Grier 4th line could get the job done. And I wouldn’t worry too much about losing Goc with respect to Roenick retiring after this season. There will be plenty of free-agent options that would love to come play for us considering what we have built. Plus Logan Corture is right around the corner and we have some other prospects I wouldn’t mind giving icetime to. If we could find a way to salvage some value out of Goc, like a draft pick, I would jump all over it.

I think I pulled my swagger muscle...

by BawLa on Jan 1, 2009 8:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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My Response...

First off, great stuff. I really like the hard work you put in here.

I would like to start off by saying that you can realistically have both Goc and Mitchell on the same team. Keeping one doesn’t necessarily eliminate the other. I prefer Mitchell over Goc as well, he is a better overall player and a future star in this league.

As for your Goc vs Plihal argument… Goc and Plihal are the same age (25). Goc is still developing, but is by no means a star. Neither is Plihal. They are similar players, in so far as they haven’t quite lived up to expectations. However, here is why I think Goc is a better option than Plihal going forward.

Playmaking Ability: Goc has a nose for the puck, and has immense skill in the offensive zone. He may not be scoring at a high clip this year (or any year), but I stand by my argument that if he had some more offensive weapons with him, he’d be racking up the assists by now. Put Goc on a line with Mitchell, and I think the scoring goes up for both players. Goc has created opportunities all season, and his teammates just haven’t capitalized. I have never once seen Plihal create an opportunity for a teammate. Mitchell still needs to work on his playmaking abilities; he can create for himself but has trouble finding teammates when the offense slows down. The argument was never Goc over Mitchell, it was Goc over Plihal.

Speed: Goc is a deceptively quick skater, and would work well on a line with Torrey. Plihal is a power skater, and although he “has a snipe” (thanks to my buddy Sam for that one), he’s not near as fast as Goc or Mitchell.

Face Offs: Goc has been a monster in the FO circle this year. His high % means volumes to the team; that alone should give him a place on any team. As far as third line centers go, Goc is one of the top FO men on the ice. You say that you would rather have Mitchell center line 3, but I wouldn’t ever want to give up what Goc can do on the draws. That does not mean that Mitchell isn’t a better player, he’s just not as good in the face off circle.

Those are Goc’s strengths, but he sure has weaknesses too. He hasn’t quite lived up to his potential, hasn’t found his goal scoring touch yet, and he needs to add some size to his frame. However, he does more for a team than Plihal. Plihal may be the PK specialist, but we have a few of those on the team already. Marleau, Michalek, Grier, and Mitchell have all shown that they are more than capable of handling the PK duties. I’m guessing that we can insert Goc into that equation in pressure situations (i.e. when a PK man is in the box).

As far as your +/- argument goes, it’s kind of a junk stat. But, if we do use it, Plihal isn’t doing much better, coming in at -3.

I like both Goc an Plihal. I wish there was room for both players, and there probably will be. Clowe and Roenick might end up leaving at the end of the season, which would leave a void which Goc and Plihal could fill.

All in all, I think it’s a tough decision, but I go with Goc. I respect your decision to go with Plihal… great work!

Fear the Fin: Where I'm totally UNAPPRECIATED!

by That'll Cheech You on Jan 1, 2009 9:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I defintely agree about Goc,

he has been making plays out there and creating scoring chances left and right this year. It can be rather tough on a center when the likes of Mike Grier are out there on the wing, no disrespect, just doesn’t have a nack for finding the back of the net. Also, I think Goc has killed penalties just as well as plihal this year and showcased some of that deceptive skating you speak of.

by mattman on Jan 2, 2009 12:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well said Sir...

You lay out Goc’s strengths very well. I agree with most of what you say. However there are a few things I would like to point out that create a distinction between the way you and I view Goc.

Firstly, Goc’s play-making ability is finally starting to show through in the last few months. But from what I’ve seen he is only putting together 2/3 of the play. He’ll make a good play in our zone or in the neutral zone to get the puck moving towards the offensive zone, he’ll get it deep and skate in and battle on the boards to open up opportunities, but when he comes free off the boards, he’ll whiff the pass to an open man in the slot. Players with better play-making ability can set up goals for other players that I would classify as high-percentage shots. In order to do that you have to both win your battle on the boards AND deliver a quick but shootable pass on the tape.

I agree that he has deceptive skating ability, but he doesn’t have the type of speed that will help him to remain elusive along the boards. And he doesn’t have the strength to protect the puck very well on the boards either.

There are times when I see Goc just flying around and I see the potential that he brings to the table. I’m sure you would like to see Goc with some better scorers on his line and I think with this whole “where do we put Cheechoo” scenario we have going on will mean that Goc and Cheech will be skating together. Additionally, it makes sense to put Mitchell on the 4th line right when he comes back. He can just focus on skating, checking and PK duties until he’s fully back in the mix. In the meantime we would get to see a Plihal-Goc-Cheechoo 3rd line, and we can see if Goc’s play-making ability is real gold or just a flash in the pan.

Goc’s skill in the face-off circle could mean a great deal of value to the checking line as well. It would make that line much harder to score against. Plus, I think that Mitchell and Cheechoo together gives us more goal scoring ability from the 3rd line. And you know how important that extra goal from the 3rd line can be.

As for Plihal and his PK abilities, I think that adds great value to the team overall because if Milan/Marleau get 2-4 minutes less on the PK, they will be that much more dangerous on the PP and/or 5v5. You can have Grier, Mitchell, Plihal all manning most of the PK time and you rotate Pavelski/Marleau/Michalek in there as the 4th main penalty killer.

The last thing I want to do is give up on Goc right as he might be breaking through the surface. The injury to Roenick gives us a unique opportunity to evaluate which player (between Goc-Plihal) deserves more ice time. I also agree with you that both can be on the team. When Roenick comes back he isn’t just going to be playing full time, and having players like Goc/Plihal can allow us to distribute off-days amongst the older vets. Heck, even giving big-Joe/lil-Joe a night off here or there could pay dividends in April. Having Goc or Plihal as a healthy scratch just shows what a great situation we are in.

I think I pulled my swagger muscle...

by BawLa on Jan 3, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That was...

a very well thought out analysis. I agree with all of your points, sans 1.

I don’t think Goc is physical enough (he needs to add more size) to be our checking line center. He’s more of a finesse type player… he’s just got to start showing why he was a top draft pick and get his head in the game. Once everything shakes out, and we get past the injury bug, I’m a big proponent (as you know) for putting Mitchell on the wing. I just want to see what he looks like out there. As a wing, the offense would play more into Torrey’s style.

If however, Goc does not improve enough by the end of the year while having better line mates (Torrey, Cheech) with him, I’d say its time for him to go. Although he’s still young (19), Logan Couture is on the way (currently playing with the Ottawa 67’s) … he’s going to make us forget all about Goc anyways.

Fear the Fin: Where I'm totally UNAPPRECIATED!

by That'll Cheech You on Jan 3, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

In regards to Mitchell’s future with the team:

Placing him on the fourth line is somewhat of a necessity- after the Kurtis Foster incident last year, Torrey hasn’t been the same player. He was a little more tentative in the corners, was somewhat of a liability defensively, and had trouble demonstrating full offensive capabilities (much like your criticisms of Goc). Coupled with his aforementioned struggles in the defensive end, it’s not a sure thing to say that he will come in right away and produce. In my mind the jury is still out on him.

You raise some good points about distributing PK time, and it makes a lot of sense to rest Patty on the PK. Then again, you look at what Datsyuk and Zetterberg do in Detroit (both spending massive amounts on the penalty kill), and you wonder if taking Patty out of the mix is all that worth it. He’s very good at generating shorthanded opportunities, which causes the blueline to be less aggressive when pinching and taking chances lower in the zone. That just might be his greatest asset on that unit.

Some very solid points, but I’m going to have to side with That’ll Cheech You on Goc’s immediate future with the team. I have seen some vast improvement from the beginning of the year. He was pretty ineffective last year in the playoffs, but it’s a new year and the talent level is there. If he can contribute in the last fourth of the year at the level we expect of him, he’s a huge asset for our bottom lines. Current year point production should make him relatively cheap, and with Plihal unlikely to command more than a million and a half per (a huge reach), it seems feasible we can sign them both. Blake and Roenick come off the books free up a lot of space to work with.

Fear The Fin: Where The Second Round Is Overrated

by Mr. Plank on Jan 3, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs