Dennis Seidenberg: The perfect trade target for a Sharks team in need of defensive help
[Note] Plank and I will be doing many more of these once we get closer to the trade deadline. We just didn't want to wait on this one.
Huge thanks to Whale4ever of LitterBoxCats.com, the SB Nation Florida Panthers blog. His answers to my questions about Seidenberg went above and beyond what I expected. Seriously, go visit his site.
No, I didn't panic and start looking for trade possibilities after that 4-1 loss to Detroit. Or after the 6-2 loss to the Kings. In reality, I've been looking for a possible trade since the beginning of the season, after a talk I had with Plank about the relative weakness of the defense.
Finding a trade that worked wasn't the easiest proposition. Even with the recalls and demotions of Jamie McGinn and others, the Sharks have only freed up around $40,000 worth of cap space. (Don't go on CapGeek.com, by the way, looks like they got hacked - it takes you right to a spyware site) Because of this, any trade that could possibly be made would have to include pieces from NHL roster. That's in direct contrast to deadline deals in recent years, where picks and prospects were enough to get the job done. The other implication of the cap issues? Players coming back in the deal would have to have relatively low cap hits. Players on the trading block like Pavel Kubina ($5 MM), Scott Niedermayer ($6.75 MM), and Dion Phaneuf ($6.5 MM)? Out of the question, unless you're trading significant assets.
So the question becomes this: Are there any players on low contracts whose play could significantly outweigh the players being traded for them? If the Sharks were in the mix for Kubina, who some (Ek lund) seem to believe they are, Clowe would almost have to be going the other way. Not worth it. Almost any trade for a big contract defenseman would have to include Clowe and others.
That let me on a journey to find the perfect trade target, a long and winding road which tore at the very fabric of my soul. Scouring capgeek.com, nhlnumbers.com and behindthenet.com, I searched for the elusive defender who would not only improve the Sharks, but also keep the team's offensive core intact.
The clouds parted, and a bright light shined. Dennis Seidenberg appeared ($2.25 MM cap hit, one year remaining), and all was right in the world.
Make the jump for a Q&A with Whale4ever of LitterBoxCats.com and an in depth look at Dennis Seidenberg.
He's not the biggest name in hockey... hell, he probably wouldn't even crack the top 100. But Seidenberg (an Olympian for Germany, by the way) is as solid a defensemen as there is in the NHL.
I'm still not opposed to Doug Wilson's decision to trade Ehrhoff (another German Olympian). It was a necessary move to bring in Heatley, who's addition has paid off in spades for the offense. I am though, and always will be, against the contract handed to Kent Huskins, who's been mediocre at best with the team. He's not a terrible defenseman, but he's not what the team needed. The Sharks needed someone that they could trust to take some minutes away from Rob Blake. Instead, Huskins is sheltered on the bottom pairing, and the mostly ineffective Blake is on the ice for 21:15 per game. That's more than last year when many claimed that he wasn't near the same defenseman that he was earlier in his career. Well, he's a year older and a year slower now.
Seidenberg, on the other hand, is anything but a liability. A smooth skater and a big body, Seidenberg is capable of logging big minutes and playing the point on both the penalty kill and the power play. Although I usually turn up a nose to the +/- stat, his +2 on an 18-20-7 and offensively challenged Panthers team is more than impressive. By all behindthenet.com metrics, he's had a solid year in all ends of the ice. The stat that's most impressive to me, though, is a very untraditional one.
Seidenberg leads the league in blocked shots (129 BkS). Last year, he was top 20 (160 BkS) in only 70 games. In my opinion, it takes a special kind of player to get down and block a shot, consistently. That's the kind of grit and desire to win that you want in a player. The fact that he's doing this on a team like the Panthers? Even more impressive. Nabokov would love this guy.
I recently had a question and answer session with Whale4ever, who's blog LitterBoxCats.com exclusively covers the ups and downs of the Florida Panthers for our parent site, SB Nation. His responses follow.
Do you think the Panthers are likely to trade Seidenberg at the deadline this year?
The Panthers are at a spot unfortunately quite familiar to them at this time every year: within shooting distance of a postseason berth, yet again on the outside - so far. The effect this has on the club that held on to Jay Bouwmeester last March could wind up frenetic: other than Nathan Horton, Stephen Weiss, Michael Frolik, Dmitry Kulikov, David Booth, and probably Bryan McCabe, everyone could - and perhaps should - be bait, for the right price.
Is it likely that the Panthers will try to re sign him if he isn't traded?
Seidenberg is a consistent and hard-working asset on a blueline which only recently has displayed unity. He's a large part of that. I'd guess Jordan Leopold would be dropped first, but his contract (both are UFAs next summer) is cheaper. Any way it's looked at, all will depend on the Cats' position on the conference ladder come the trade deadline.
Is it the common perception that Seidenberg used Florida as an in between to set up his next contract?
It hasn't really been discussed too much, but I would certainly agree with that premise. Carolina gave him the cold shoulder and Florida badly needed experienced defenseman, hence their willingness to "overpay" (as Jim Rutherford might have said last August). I believe he's doing all that's been asked of him, in a tough situation on the ice. But again, as far as the Panthers go, they'd probably rather retain Seidenberg over Leopold (who's a year older).
Have there been any rumors surrounding him this year?
To my recollection there hasn't been a single instance where his name has come up. The organization is famously uber-quiet about such matters, but not a peep from the usual gang (Spector's Hockey leads the list of legitimate sites), and none of the typical Sunday around-the-league wrap-ups have ever mentioned him. All the early defensive talk was focused on (currently injured) Ville Koistinen. Still don't know what drove management to fall in love with him...
What do the Panthers need as a return for him?
Florida needs scoring. Period. Behind Horton, Weiss, and Radek Dvorak (you read that correctly), the club is firing blanks from all forward positions. Steven Reinprecht caught fire for a bit, but that's loooong gone. Returning Booth to the lineup (which probably ain't gonna happen) won't alter the lethargy in the lineup. I'll leave it to the pundits to figure out how to pick apart a roster such as San Jose's.
Does Florida usually ask for players, picks, or a mixture of the two in a trade like this?
If we're talking Seidenberg for ________ , I'd estimate the Cats could expect a bottom-third forward (of which they have a team chock full of those) or a mid-round pick. Keep in mind Seidenberg's contract status; he's almost certainly a rental, and any straight-up deal will reflect that. To answer the question, though, Florida historically goes player-for-player, but we're all still getting to know first-year GM Randy Sexton...
What pieces is this team missing to make a playoff run?
What's missing? Scoring, scoring, more scoring, and an identity. Oh, and scoring. Seriously, other than an inability to consistently hit the back of the net, the Cats once again need to develop a common goal, a shared defining element. All too often it's been win-one, lose-two, and no one (publicly) appears all that broken up about it. They've got the "old hands" in Cory Stillman and Dvorak, the up-and-comers in Horton, Weiss, and Frolik, the "money goalie" in Tomas Vokoun, and a lot of spare parts otherwise. A repository for the league's best third- and fourth-liners. As for the "D"? No complaints once Kulikov returns.
Thanks again to Whale4ever.
I gather from these answers that Florida would be willing to trade Seidenberg, and his rental status makes the return required minimal. Here's my proposal:
Because of the Sharks cap issues, the trade couldn't be a one for one deal. The Cats would have to take some contracts back, but neither Huskins' or Staubitz' deals is handicapping. Because of this, though, the forward that Florida desperately needs is one most Sharks fans likely don't want to give up. Even still, the trade brings us in at just about even, so the Sharks would have to be without a healthy scratch for the remainder of the year. However, the Worcester Shuttle has been effective in so far as the player is always with the team on time. Now that Stockton is in the mix, it could be even easier.
The addition of Seidenberg could solve many issues for the Sharks, especially if the trade went down as proposed above. Huskins would be moved, and Blake could shift down to the lower pairing to play with Jason Demers. You could therefore lessen some of Blake's ice time, in turn making him a more well rested and more effective defender. Seidenberg could pair with Vlasic, which would be a solid pairing to alleviate some pressure off of Boyle and Murray. Although we'd be literally dumping Huskins' contract on Florida, he's cheaper for them than Seidenberg, and only has one year remaining.
The trade would also send Staubitz to the east coast. Although I am a fan of Brad Staubitz' desire and drive, I'm not a fan of him playing on the same line with Jody Shelley. Just dreadful, as Plank has mentioned countless times before. This would give McLaren the opportunity to reprise his fourth line role, where he's been more than impressive.
The part that hurts is giving up AHL All Star Benn Ferriero, but he's the main piece in this deal. The Panthers are looking for young scorers, and Ferriero fits the bill. I would guess that he'd be a fixture on the second line after the trade.
This is all pure speculation, but I've never proposed a trade that made more sense for both teams. I know it probably won't happen, but I hope that Doug Wilson at least takes a look at the possibility of bringing the bargain that is Seidenberg aboard. He's the piece that the defense is missing, and his addition would surely catapult the Sharks below average defense into the upper third of the league. I wouldn't be opposed to Doug Wilson going after Seidenberg in the offseason, and having him on the team would make that even easier (ala Kent Huskins).
Doug Wilson will make a move, or else all of the roster changes were for naught. Hopefully, he considers this one.
Go Sharks
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That souns pretty good to me
however, I was talking to someone who said they had a “connection” at the Shark tank, and there was some talk of sending Mitchell and Huskins for a D-man.
Now I’m not saying this was a reliable tip, but I did think it was interesting. I’d probably expect something more than a Dennis Seidenberg in that case though.
I like Mitchell, but I’d be willing to part with him for the right trade.
I wasn't all that impressed with the play of Ferriero
But you cant deny he’s done great in the AHL. I’m hoping we can hang on to him, although I wish he was a more physical forward.
Currently we have a number of guys doing nothing. Just taking up a jersey. Too many to mention actually! Do you wait for their play to pick up to get a higher return, or do you dump them?
At this point in the season, we should be addressing not only our needs on defense, but also that pesky salary cap! I think any trade we make should add to the core group of players, but also free up some space so that we can reduce the risk of our Baby Sharks getting Deep Vein Thrombosis from all of the excess travel time.
If anybody can make these two things happen, it’s Doug Wilson!
Do tanning sessions count against the cap?
"iaT"S FUCKINGE LIEK CONICO DO MAYO!!!!!111"
Mr. K. 5/5/2009
At this point in the season, we should be addressing not only our needs on defense, but also that pesky salary cap! I think any trade we make should add to the core group of players, but also free up some space so that we can reduce the risk of our Baby Sharks getting Deep Vein Thrombosis from all of the excess travel time.
We’re looking at roughly one month left of Worcester Shuttlin’— from now until February 13th (i.e. the beginning of the Olympics). After that break comes the trade deadline, and consequently, no need to free up cap space.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
I guess what I’m saying is, stay the course. We’ll be out of this soon.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
You didnt answer my question about Tanning sessions counting against the cap.
Fair comment about cap space post trade deadline though. I cant believe we are already that far through the season.
"iaT"S FUCKINGE LIEK CONICO DO MAYO!!!!!111"
Mr. K. 5/5/2009
Like Seidenberg as a pickup
Am somewhat sour on dealing Ferreiro, as he is the future, and I think we’ll have to let Seto walk in the offseason to keep Pavs and Patty.
For arguments sake:
I would almost rather simply package Seto and Huskins in exchange for Seidenberg and a high pick since Seto > Ferreiro. This makes Seto the centerpiece, and Huskins the cap relief.
If my numbers are correct, Seto+Huskins is just a hair under $3M, so we get about $750K in cap savings.
And I thought that the Worcester Shuttle had earned us a full season acquisition hit of about $300K? I don’t understand the numbers all that well.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
I don’t want to give up on Seto yet, especially since his crappy play this year will affect his contract… we just may get him at a bargain. He’s not this bad. He’s also a better player than Ferriero long term.
I’m not sure on the numbers… I haven’t been able to get on capgeek all weekend.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
by Matthew_Taylor on Jan 10, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
Seto certainly > Ferriero
Again, cap and contracts are not my forte. Seto is in RFA this coming offseason, yes?
If so, isn’t there some mandatory level of Salary he has to be offered? Is it a 5% raise on his current contract?
I agree on Seto being a better player long term, but based on my fuzzy understanding of the contracts, I’d want to ditch him from a cap perspective. I just smell him turning out like a lazy Jonathan Cheechoo. Cheech was injured but always worked hard, and in the end, we couldn’t afford to keep him at $3M. I worry that Seto will end up in the $3M range, and won’t have the injury bug, just the between the ears bug.
I played around with some other proposals with Florida, but none of their depth wingers seemed all that enticing as a pickup if packaged with Seidenberg.
I did a bit of research too on other teams, and I don’t find a better pickup than Seidenberg. If the Panthers were willing to pull the trigger on this deal, I would not be upset.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
I would almost rather simply package Seto and Huskins in exchange for Seidenberg and a high pick since Seto > Ferreiro. This makes Seto the centerpiece, and Huskins the cap relief.
I almost agree with you…except, the Sharks want to win this season. Right now. And if we are going to do that, Seto is going to have to be a big part of that. I do think that of Marleau, Pavs, Seto, if one has to walk, its Seto…but I still think we need him in order to win THIS SEASON.
I’m not sure I know enough about Seidenberg to make an educated assessment of if he’s a good trade target or not…I’ll just leave that to the professionals. But I do agree a cheaper cap hit defenseman who can play solid in the D end is clearly what we need…so if Seidenberg is that, I’m all for it. The trade you propose would be a-ok in my book. None of those players I would be sorry to see go. I’m just not sure it gets an NHL level anything, in terms of talent given up.
Sometimes the impossible can become possible if you're AWESOME!
by ZeroIndulgence on Jan 10, 2010 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
Completely agree on the trio
The trade is more an effort to get something for Seto, rather than let him walk. Although… if we don’t tender him an offer sheet, maybe we can get him at a discount. I don’t know.
But you’re right. We need Seto to be the second scoring winger after Heatley.
My ideal line combinations for this season are:
Heatley Thornton Setogutchi
Marleau Pavelski Clowe
Malhotra Nichol Ortmeyer
McGinn Mitchell McLaren
If each of those guys played to their capabilities, I love the balance present in those lines. Top line is a pure setup guy with two snipers. Second line has two defensively responsible speedsters with a big body to compliment them. Third line is pure shutdown and PK with some scoring pop in Manny. Fourth line is a mix of size, speed and grit. You could even flip McGinn and Ortmeyer, but I think I’d like to keep the kids together and have them develop some chemistry because I hope there’s a good chance that they are next years third line, and we could have Scott Nichol and Jed Ortmeyer go back to the fourth with a new winger.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
The scoring touch that McGinn has is too good
to be wasted on the 4th line.
I can definitely see him being a 2nd/3rd line winger.
"iaT"S FUCKINGE LIEK CONICO DO MAYO!!!!!111"
Mr. K. 5/5/2009
Agreed
All the metrics, basic and advanced, say that Nichol is the epitome of a 4th line center: great faceoff, hustle, but offensively challenged and defensively mediocre. He should be on the 4th line and not on the 3rd. Ortemeyer is a little better, but McGinn-Malhotra-Mitchell is actually a very balanced line with some offensive potential. Malhotra and Mitchell, per game, are probably the Sharks two best defensive forwards (Ferriero was actually great defensively while he was here, too btw) and McGinn has great offensive numbers given his ice time. A fourth line of (Shelly/Mclaren)-Nichol-Ortemeyer which plays 8-10 sheltered minutes a game would be very very good.
But my biggest worry right now is that second line. Clowe-Pavs-Seto seem to have no chemistry, and they didn’t last year when put together either. Clowe has been guilty of awful turnovers all year, and it seems Seto is just chasing the puck all over the place and is just a bit late on everything. Pavs has been outstanding, but he isn’t like Marleau who can carry a line by himself, at least not yet (shoot, took marleau a decade to become that player). Hope they pull it together soon.
I saw this guy as a UFA in the offseason.
I looked at his stats and thought he would be a good fit for the Sharks, but it did not happen. The trade sounds good, but it would stink to give up Ferriero, and the fans would certainly miss Staubitz, but this trade would work well for both teams. As long as we do not give up McGinn or Couture of our young guys I am fine.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Jan 10, 2010 2:23 PM PST reply actions
The dream is still to find a way to acquire Scott Niedermayer, but that is a dream.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Jan 10, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
If they'd be willing to take Mitchell+3rd instead of Ferriero, I'd actually be happier
Seidenberg does seem like a good fit. And I just don’t think Wilson made the right moves this off-season. The Ehrhoff trade was not necessary to get Heatley. The choice on defense was let go of either Blake, Ehrhoff or Vlasic to account for Vlasic’s raise. The correct choice was to let Blake go. Michalek+Cheechoo had nearly the exact same salary as Heatley and the bottom 6 this year is cheaper I believe, which should have covered the remaining difference.
Why Mitchell instead of Ferriero?
Maybe I have developed too large of a man crush on the guy, but I feel Mitchell helps the team.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Jan 10, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
Cap space and the fact that I think Ferriero can be a top 6 guy, which I don't think Mitchell can
We also have many plausible checking line centers in the system. I’d rather keep the guy who’s shown he can play wing effectively.
On a completely unrelated note
If any of you guys have ESPN U, they have an NCAA hockey game at 5:00 tonight, Northeastern vs. Massachusetts. Norhteastern have the Daniels twins. Justin Daniels © is pretty much the Sharks’ only top 6 forward prospect not in the AHL in N. America. His brother, Drew Daniels (RW), is more of a 4th line guy. Massachusetts has Justin Braun (D), a decent puck moving defenseman prospect of the Sharks as well.
You make the point about having to move Clowe for a big defensemen...
is that really not viable? It seems to me that Clowe has underperformed this season, and, while I love the guy (see: playoff explosion), his play against the Red Wings (turnovers leading to one goal and one near-goal breakaway) highlight bigger problems that he’s having not using his body and trying too hard to dangle.
by Very Serious Person on Jan 10, 2010 9:16 PM PST reply actions
True, Clowe had a terrible game against Detroit. However, after struggling earlier this year, he’s been having a relatively solid season. His 30 points are more than half his total output from last season, even as he’s had his issues.
The 68 penalty minutes are troubling, though. As are the turnovers and memory lapses in which he believes that he is Joe Thornton.
However, trading Clowe for a defenseman would considerably hurt our top six. Jed Ortmeyer was playing on the second line for a time, and that was WITH Clowe in the lineup. I wouldn’t want to know what would happen if he was gone.
Of course, there are going to be times when Clowe is frustrating. But I don’t think we could get a defenseman who would improve our team when you consider that we would lose Clowe’s production.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
by Matthew_Taylor on Jan 10, 2010 10:01 PM PST up reply actions
NJ?
Look at the Devils…their top couple of forwards look like frickin supergods because the team D shuts down their opposition. If you have to move a clowe/seto/mitchell to create a true shut down D group then the Super studs the Sharks are left with should be more than enough to put up points.
For example the caps will put up 8 on you, but if they get a tiny bit cold, they lose. If NJ is hittin the net they win 4-1 instead of 2-1. Either way they win.
I would rather see the Sharks tighten up a little on the back end so it doesn’t take 4 to win.
Christmas is for shopping and the shopping god is everything. -MGB-
Sheldon Souray would waive his no trade clause, and TSN's website even hints that San Jose is at the top of the list
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=305271
Souray is a puck-moving defenceman and power play quarterback that would garner a healthy return from a team making a run at the Stanley Cup. The 33-year-old Alberta native has two year remaining on his current contract but his no-trade clause expires on July 1.
Souray’s children live with their mother in California and travel to Edmonton for regular visits so a move to the West Coast could be in the offing. The Sharks are challenging for the league lead in points, making San Jose a logical option
( Souray’s HUGE, with the hardest shot in the league. He’s got the Jovo size, with Pronger’s mentality. GIve ’em Seto, Ferriero, McGInn, and a draft pick. My two cents)
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Jan 11, 2010 12:18 AM PST reply actions
( Souray’s HUGE, with the hardest shot in the league. He’s got the Jovo size, with Pronger’s mentality. GIve ’em Seto, Ferriero, McGInn, and a draft pick. My two cents)
That won’t get it done under the salary cap; you’d have to move something like Clowe and Murray in order to clear enough space for him.
I love Souray though. Dude’s an underrated puck mover as well.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
Souray was terrible against the Sharks this year
I’m sure it’s more of a sign of the broader problem in Edmonton than Souray.
"iaT"S FUCKINGE LIEK CONICO DO MAYO!!!!!111"
Mr. K. 5/5/2009
Seto, McGinn AND Ferriero?
No thanks. Not if we give up all three.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Jan 11, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
annnnd i suck at seperating my quotes from the website's quotes.
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Jan 11, 2010 12:18 AM PST reply actions
Well, for someone of Souray's all-star caliber, and the way Clowe and Seto have underproduced
I’m sure they’d be missed, for sure. But the way this business works, you learn to roll with the punches. Ans as much flack as Couture gets, he’s a young kid tearing up the AHL in his first full season. The problem’s he’s experienced with the big club have been because they’ve stuck a skill position player between Stone Hands Shelley and Staubitz. Throw Couture out there with Pavelski and another skill player, the results would be drastically different. It’s a risk, I know. But when I think of the Sharks blue line right now, going into the playoffs with a lack of size and presence is the glaring red flag that automatically shoots up.
Would it be the best idea? Debatable. But, it is food for thought. Personally, I dig this kind of stuff. Speculating is one of my favorite things to do.
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Jan 11, 2010 12:47 AM PST reply actions
Finally a reasonable take
What a great article! I had heard some rumors about the Sharks trying to shore up the D-line, just didn’t know who would fit under the cap?
Now I haven’t been drinking, but wouldn’t Lukowich or Kyle McLaren have filled the role of a Seidenberg? Both could block shots, suck down minutes and hit like a stepmother from hell.
Seems like Dougie went into the season praying that guys like Huskins (awful!) would fill in the holes left by losing Erhoff and the others previously mentioned.
Now we’ve got a pretty potent offense, but a Swiss Cheese defense. And if SJ does think they can/need to win it all this year (wishful thinking) then why did we let those guys go? I know it was for salary and I’m not sure McLaren’s knee’s are good anymore (not even in the league), but what we’ve got is not nearly good enough, unless Nabby can stand on his head all post season.
Seidenberg puts up more points than them though which is the appeal.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Jan 11, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
I like
I like TCY’s trade mostly because it sends Huskins elsewhere. Wudda bust.
I'll drink that! oh...I'll drink TO that.
Not as much as a bust as...
LOGAN COUTURE!!! How has he not won a Stanley Cup or been named captain of his team yet?
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Jan 11, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
he didn’t win the Cup right out of the womb. Total bust.
resident cartoonist @CouchTarts Lightning is seven times as hot as the surface of the sun.
That’s still not as hot as Douglas Murray. -mymclife

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