Trade Targets: Tomas Kaberle (TOR)
by FTF Staff on Feb 9, 2010 3:00 AM PST
in Armchair GM
110 comments
"Trade Targets" will be a recurring piece on Fear The Fin until the March 3rd deadline, in which Plank and TCY will explore trade possibilities for the San Jose Sharks. Previous pieces of this nature can be found here.
As evidenced with the poll ran on Sunday, Fear The Fin readers have good feelings about the acquisition of Niclas Wallin.
However, there are some issues Plank and TCY have with the deal. Not only did Doug Wilson arguably overpay by doling out a second round draft selection, the move deprived the Sharks of an asset they could have used in another trade, as well as restricted the amount of cap space available for San Jose to use.
This is not a criticism of Wallin's abilities, but a criticism of organizational asset management. There should be a clear distinction between the two.
A potential left knee injury to Marc-Edouard Vlasic has sidelined the Sharks best shutdown defenseman for the last six games, resulting in Kent Huskins playing amongst the top four. Huskins is a serviceable bottom pairing defenseman when he's given sheltered minutes, but a foray into the twenty-plus range is not what the doctor ordered for a team who has relied on Evgeni Nabokov to keep them in games multiple occasions this season, and certainly not for a team with legitimate Stanley Cup aspirations.
Of course, this is a short term issue. It is likely Vlasic returns before the playoffs begin and Kent Huskins is eventually relegated to the third pairing. But even then, the Sharks blueline is still not at the level we would like it to be heading into April. So what does Wilson do to bring in another defender?
As it turns out, a noteworthy trade target played against San Jose last night.
Tomas Kaberle's name has floated around more than a Baby Ruth in a swimming pool, but we'll be damned if he is not an attractive option for the Sharks. Although Burke has said that he won't ask Kaberle to waive his no-trade clause, media members have begun to think that a Kaberle trade is becoming a possibility. Pierre Lebrun stated that Kaberle might be open to a trade to a contender such as San Jose or Chicago. James Mirtle, beat writer for the Maple Leafs at the Globe & Mail, thinks that the possibility of a Kaberle trade significantly increased when Phaneuf found his way to Toronto.
If the Maple Leafs continue this season without any other transactions, they will use approximately $25 MM of their cap space on defensemen. For a team that's trying to rebuild, it's tough to carry that much payroll on the defensive end.
Rebuilding takes picks as well. Toronto sent two first round draft picks ('10, '11) and a second ('10) to Boston this past off-season in exchange for Phil Kessel.
As we mentioned before, Burke has been against asking Kaberle to waive his NTC. However, Kaberle was almost involved in the Kessel deal, and his name has popped up in rumors for years; the Philadelphia Flyers nearly acquired his rights two years ago for Jeff Carter and a first round draft pick.
So how would Kaberle help? First off, when healthy, Kaberle is arguably one of the top ten offensive defensemen in the NHL. For a team whose second leading scorer on defense is Jason Demers (20 points), that's a definite plus. Kaberle has put up 45 points thus far on struggling Maple Leafs team, netting three power play goals and 20 power play assists in the process.
That's elite.
Another area where Kaberle would contribute would be in terms of ice time. Dan Boyle, although capable of playing big minutes, is playing over 26 minutes a game (6th in the league), and has suffered two minor injuries already. Marc-Edouard Vlasic, who's out indefinitely with a knee injury, plays over 22 minutes. And then there's Rob Blake (all hookin', holdin', and trippin' 40 years of him), playing over 21 minutes. Each one of those players has been injured at some point this year. While you usually expect your top guys to play top minutes, that's not necessarily conducive to long term success. Believe us, if McLellan had another point option on the power play, Boyle wouldn't be seeing 26 minutes a game. That's not a preferred number for a guy who will be headed to Vancouver for the Winter Olympics later this month.
Kaberle plays 22 minutes per game in Toronto, and is their main point option on the power play. Although that number isn't Boylesque, it's impressive. Kaberle's addition would mean volumes for the Sharks in terms of ice time, on multiple levels. For starters, Boyle would be able to rest more often with another elite power play defenseman. Secondly, Blake wouldn't be needed for 21 minutes a game. That would help significantly.
Let's sum it up this way-- when Blake is playing top 4 minutes, he gives you bottom pairing production. If he plays bottom pairing minutes, he gives you top 4 production. It's a factor of his age, and while he's still a skilled player, he would be much more effective in a lesser role. Kaberle is also an insurance plan if (god forbid) Boyle goes down for a significant amount of time or if Vlasic's injury turns out to be more than "day-to-day".
The rub here is that he's not a great defensive defenseman by any means, and that's a definite problem for the San Jose Sharks. We've been a proponent of bringing in a hard-nosed guy who will excel in the defensive end with some offensive upside, not a guy who will excel in the offensive end with some defensive question marks.
As Plank put it one day, we need a motherfucker. Kaberle is akin to a guy who is likely living with his own mom and baking cakes, not tapping the one across the street and making bedboards break. He sees some of the easiest competition on the Maple Leafs roster, doesn't play on the kill (which, admittedly, won't be an issue in San Jose), and has a complete lack of physical presence. That's been an issue for the San Jose Sharks this season, and Kaberle keeps the status quo in this regard.
So what will it take to acquire him?
As we mentioned above, Toronto is in full rebuild mode. They're looking to get younger, which includes draft picks.
According to SBN counterpart Pension Plan Puppets, any deal would have to include a first round pick to begin with. Without that, the deal doesn't happen. Period.
Because of Kaberle's contract ($4.25 MM cap hit), Ryane Clowe would have to be involved in the deal. Now, unlike most trade proposals, we already know that Toronto has interest in Clowe-- they were an interested party when he was shopped during last year's NHL draft.
Toronto would also have to take one of Huskins or Mitchell to make the deal work. In a perfect world, Huskins is the odd man out of the picture, leaving the Sharks with seven defenseman (Leach as the healthy scracth) on the roster as opposed to eight (Huskins, Leach). Pension Plan Puppets agreed, stating that a package of Clowe, Huskins, and a first round pick may work if the Sharks were to land Kaberle.
This nets about $1 MM in salary cap room to work with, allowing Jamie McGinn a permanent spot on the roster to replace Ryane Clowe on the third line.
Long story short: Although the Sharks would be trading a young asset in Clowe (along with their first round pick for the third consecutive year), they would be getting an elite offensive defenseman in return, along with some of the additional intrinsic benefits of moving Clowe's salary and roster spot.
This all hinges on the second line's continued ability to score goals as currently constructed (Malhotra - Pavelski - Setoguchi). If that stops, Clowe could come in handy to rejuvenate the offense. However, Clowe's demotion to the third line makes him expendable, especially for a player like Kaberle. This deal would not only make the addition of Wallin much more attractive, it would give San Jose one of the best defensive units in the league when healthy.
(Note: We did inquire about Francois Beauchemin as well; however, Pension Plan Puppets assured us that he will probably not be traded considering he just signed a deal with Burke and the Leafs last offseason)
Heatley - Thornton - Marleau
Malhotra - Pavelski - Setoguchi
McGinn - Nichol - Ortmeyer
Shelley - Mitchell - Staubitz/McLaren
Boyle - Murray
Kaberle - Vlasic
Blake - Wallin
And the offer that gets it done is...
To Toronto: Ryane Clowe, Kent Huskins, 1st Round Pick
To San Jose: Tomas Kaberle, 5th Round Pick
*****
TCY's Take: Although the defensive faults in Kaberle's game are a concern, his offensive skill is undeniable. Clowe and a 1st is an overpayment, but it frees up salary cap space in the long run and nets an important piece for the Sharks Stanley Cup hopes in the short term. You can't get away with playing Murray on the point on the power play, and Kaberle helps in that regard. If the deal is out there I pull the trigger immediately.
Plank's Take: Oh Tomas Kaberle, you are the pretty girl at the party that everyone is fawning over, and rightfully so-- your puck movement is sweet, your shot serene. Problem is, what I really want is a bad girl, a nasty lady who is going to punch me in the face like Mia Cross and toss me around like Subject Zero. I pull the trigger on this deal only if an impact shutdown defenseman like Dan Hamhuis or Jan Hejda don't work out at half the cost. Your price is just too high for me not to look at cheaper, and more defensively sound, options first.
Go Sharks.
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Sounds good to me
Mannn…Clowe, Huskins, and a first seems like soo much to give up but i guess Clowe and Huskins are really just in the deal to free up cap space.
I think DW should do it if possible. Hell Kaberle has more points this season than Clowe does; and he’s a defensmen playing on one of the worst teams in the league (he leads the leafs in scoring). So i don’t think we’ll be missing much offensively especially with the addition of McGinn.
Plus I think the Sharks coaching staff would clear up any possible issues with Kaberle’s defensive play and we’ll end up with another Dan Boyle. Once he integrates into the sharks system his defensive play won’t be an issue at all imo.
God i hope this deal happens.
I couldn’t get Kaberle to fit in under the cap. If I don’t include Leach it brings it within 20K of the cap – rolling with 6 Dmen is a bit risky. Right?
It’s only risky until the playoffs start and then it doesn’t matter.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Feb 9, 2010 5:08 AM PST up reply actions
Ready... Set... ROSTERBATE!!
Everyone here seems to be fine throwing away Clowe. Malhotra is a guy that consistently contributes 30-35 points a season. That’s not 2nd line material. Trading for Kaberle will not only make our 2nd line weaker but the 3rd and 4th line will be plugged with inexperienced players. This is a big no-no for playoffs. Our first line is going to be relied on even more once the playoffs come by. Our depth would be severely hampered and teams such as Chicago will have an easier time shutting down the HTML.
We’re so used to DW making the flashy trades. Joe Thornton, Dan Boyle, Dany Heatley, etc. We ALREADY have the key pieces. The RIGHT choice is to get a player like Robyn Regehr, but someone that commands less salary; someone that will help Vlasic shut down the opposing offense. Our defense is putrid. Horrible. Why add another offensive minded player?
This isn’t your fantasy hockey team, folks.
I would trust my child to anyone on the team --- except ---- well ---- yea, probably everyone. Including Douglas Murray (laughs). - Jody Shelley
Yes, because as you can see above, we’re valuing this possibility from a purely fantasy perspective.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
People seemed mighty excited just because we’re trading for another star. I can understand it and all, but no other team has as many “stars” as our team. We have 4 freaking players that are going to go represent for Canada! That’s a record! However, we’re still flawed, no matter how many stars we have. In baseball, if you replace a catcher that hits .280 and 20 homeruns a year with a defensively minded catcher that can catch any ball and can throw any runner out at second, you’ll get more production out of the latter. We don’t need another Boyle, we need another Vlasic.
I would trust my child to anyone on the team --- except ---- well ---- yea, probably everyone. Including Douglas Murray (laughs). - Jody Shelley
Although I see your point, my argument is laid out above. I don’t think he’s the end all be all (I would actually rather have Seidenberg). But it’s a good move.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
by TCY on Feb 9, 2010 5:25 PM PST up reply actions
I so don't want Kaberle
DW needs to hold on to that first round pick this year. As much as we love our baby Sharks there are only a few guys to get really excited about down there. If we take on Kaberle’s salary for next year it would be just one more bigger salary that’s gonna hurt us from bringing back Seto, Manny, Pavs, Patty, Nabby.
I would really aggressively target Jan Hedja – his cap hit is 2mil and we get him next year. I would propose the following deal:
To Columbus: Clowe + Mitchell
To San Jose: Hedja + 3rd round pick
On our roster replace Clowe with McGinn and Mitchell with Bust, waive Huskins (or pull a Lieno move) – Walah! We would even have cap room to spare.
Our lines would look like:
Heater – Jumbo – Patty
Seto – Pavs – Manny
Ortmeyer – Nichol – McGinn
Shelley – Bust – Staubitz/Mclaren
On D:
Boyle – Murray
Hejda – Vlasic
Blake – Wallin/Leach
ITA
I’d feel a little better about keeping Clowe than to trade him and Mitchell for Hejda but then I don’t think that meets the monetary needs to get him…
"Boys only voluntarily hug when someone scores."
"Hockey players wear numbers because you can’t always identify the body with dental records."—Anonymous
by mssjsclowie29 on Feb 9, 2010 8:28 AM PST up reply actions
Thing is, why would Columbus make that trade? Huskins and Mitchell have little to no value on the market, especially at their price tag. Just because the price fits for San Jose doesn’t mean it fits the talent being traded. Columbus is rebuilding. They want picks and prospects.
You’d have to throw in a second roun… er, well, you’d at least have to throw in a prospect, and a draft choice for Hejda. Most likely Ferriero.
I’ll have more on this on Thursday, because as I’ve mentioned, I’m a big fan of Hejda.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
Scary..
Now that I know that Plank romanced with Subject Zero is starting to give me the creeps. Swing much? :D
I would trust my child to anyone on the team --- except ---- well ---- yea, probably everyone. Including Douglas Murray (laughs). - Jody Shelley
Both games are awesome.
I loved Uncharted 2 and Mass Effect 2. Both are great. But I don’t understand his logic. It’s like comparing a Lamborghini and a Ferrari. If you can have both, then who cares? Clearly if you want the best of both worlds, you need to buy both systems. If you don’t, you’re missing out. I personally enjoyed Mass Effect 2 more than Uncharted 2. My best friend enjoyed Uncharted 2 more than Mass Effect 2. It’s a matter of opinion. What’s FACT is that they’re undeniably AWESOME games. The author of this article is clearly a dumbass, saying that he needs you to accept that ME2 is better. WTF? O.o Back to Kaberle lol.
I would trust my child to anyone on the team --- except ---- well ---- yea, probably everyone. Including Douglas Murray (laughs). - Jody Shelley
I read that article.
I honestly do not think you can really compare the games head to head, as they are so different. Uncharted 2 is linear and somewhat on-rails while Mass Effect 2 is a game about choice, and playing that role. To me it would be like comparing Modern Warfare to KotOR. They are both great in their own right, but they are so different they cannot really be compared/
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Feb 9, 2010 9:00 PM PST up reply actions
Heh, I didn’t actually romance Subject Zero, but I thought about it.
Went with Miranda, but immediately regretted it. To be honest I miss my Ashley. A second playthrough will ensure I atone for my mistakes.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
It’s just weird for me, I have a female Shepard (because Jennifer Hale is an awesome voice actor) and right now it’s looking like probably Archangel… maybe?
Definitely not the Justicar, especially as a renegade, that makes my suicide mission seem safe.
The Assassin is sadly dull, and I have never really liked Jacob (though he earned some points in his loyalty mission)… Honestly Zaeed would have probably worked personality wise with my Shepard, but he’s not an option. Same with the Scientist apparently.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
lol wtf. Your contemplating pretty hard over which dude you wanna hook up with ahaha. There’s no lesbian option?
lol
lol
lol
I would trust my child to anyone on the team --- except ---- well ---- yea, probably everyone. Including Douglas Murray (laughs). - Jody Shelley
What, no love for Tali?
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." ~Michael Scott
by ZeroIndulgence on Feb 9, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
I am staying faithful.
Although you can sleep with the secretary and you are still in a romance with Ashley, unlike if you are with a party member. I turned her down though before doing that.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Feb 9, 2010 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
Before knowing*
I have been full of all kinds of typos recently, sorry y’all.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Feb 9, 2010 9:01 PM PST up reply actions
So yeah....
Can you guys call up Doug Wilson and make that happen? That’d be awesome. Thanks.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
I'm confused...
This seems to entirely contradict what we’re looking for in terms of bolstering our blueline, so why is this even a viable trade option vis-a-vis strengthening our defensive prowess? We’re hardly struggling on the PP or PK, but what we are struggling with is most definitely shutting down opponents in our own zone. How will another Boyle help us in that end?
“The rub here is that he’s not a great defensive defenseman by any means, and that’s a definite problem for the San Jose Sharks. We’ve been a proponent of bringing in a hard-nosed guy who will excel in the defensive end with some offensive upside, not a guy who will excel in the offensive end with some defensive question marks.
As Plank put it one day, we need a motherfucker. Kaberle is akin to a guy who is likely living with his own mom and baking cakes, not tapping the one across the street and making bedboards break. He sees some of the easiest competition on the Maple Leafs roster, doesn’t play on the kill (which, admittedly, won’t be an issue in San Jose), and has a complete lack of physical presence. That’s been an issue for the San Jose Sharks this season, and Kaberle keeps the status quo in this regard."
I understand where you are coming from...
And I agree in some regard. Problem is, there aren’t many star DFD’s available. Kaberle is a star.
He’s trouble in the defensive end, to be sure. But I think there are so many benefits to Kaberle that go beyond just his offensive skill. The Blake issue, to me, being the biggest.
If you bring in another DFD, Boyle and Blake still play overly big minutes. And, although the powerplay has been good, most of the work done is by the forwards. I’d like to have someone other than Murray (although improved) manning the point.
I think the addition of Kaberle makes the defensive defensemen we already have (Vlasic, Murray, Wallin, Blake [to an extent]) more effective. For that reason, I’m for the trade. Clowe isn’t exactly a prospect anymore, and although he’s on his way to score his best ever point total, Kaberle is all but guaranteed to exceed Clowe’s production.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
by TCY on Feb 9, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
Another voice of dissent
I understand the concern about shipping out the second rounder, but I’m not sure I agree.
The second rounder is a tradeable asset, but realistically, only on a team that can afford to take on salary. I think the injury situation freed up JUST enough cap space to allow us to bring in a guy at Wallin’s salary level without sacrificing a roster player.
If we are looking to make a trade for an impact player, I think we have no choice but to ship out roster players. Draft picks are really only pot sweeteners in that regard.
Basically, if you’re a team with, say, $45M in salary, you can afford to ship away a draft pick and take on a $2M contract. The Sharks are not in that boat. I don’t think they were before the trade. Again, if my numbers are accurate, Wallin’s salary was, or will be, presuming we put Vlasic on retroactive LTIR, just under. So, from that standpoint, I don’t think our 2nd rounder was really in play for an impact deal. It gives you more negotiating power to an extent, yes, I will grant that.
But now, I think Doug Wilson might actually, in some twisted way, have put more value on a guy like Clowe. We don’t have many other assets to trade away, so it’s not like an opposing GM looking for a dance partner can say I don’t have to take a guy like Kent Huskins from you, I’d rather have that shiny draft pick you’re holding. I doubt this is actually the case, it’s just fun to imagine Doug Wilson as an eye-patch wearing, cigar smoking, fedora sporting evil genius.
As for this trade, as a trade, it’s fine. As a trade for the Sharks, I think it stinks. It does not address the organization’s need. Yes, you get a star. But we already have that kind of star in Dan Boyle. In the salary cap world, I don’t think any team can afford 2 Dan Boyles anymore than it can afford 2 Brian Campbells. We sacrifice a major asset in Ryane Clowe for something that does not address the team’s primary vulnerability in the post-season; shutdown defense.
I have to disagree with TCY and agree with Plank. If we were making this move 2 offseasons ago prior to the signing of Dan Boyle, sign me up. With Dan Boyle on the roster, no thank you. I don’t think the team’s architecture or cap structure can support it.
We need Douglas Murray 2.0, not Dan Boyle 2.0.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Pull the trigger
If DW can do this, I say go for it. I think TCY is correct, it makes our defensive D men stronger, lessens the load on Boyle, and gives us another huge scoring threat on the ice. It’s liking having Boyle out there all the time, and if you ask me, things just seem to go right with Boyle on the ice.
We’ve added small parts over the years (Moen, Huskins, Lemieux) and big parts (Guerin, Campbell). They have all failed, but I think Kaberle is on another level. Campbell never really wanted to be here, and his reluctance showed on the ice. If Kaberle waives his NTC, then you know he wants to come to San Jose for one reason… win the cup.
If it’s Clowe and Huskins going the other way, make it happen.
Vlasic + best shutdown defenseman= thanks
i really wanted to pee my pants this morning.
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Feb 9, 2010 9:49 AM PST reply actions
I wanna see
Boyle – murray
kaberle – vlasic
Demers – petrecki
7th= wallin
at least for next season. Demers is a mini boyle and petrecki a mini murray. Im just tired of paying huskins for somethin we coukd have a prospect do better and grow. I know the 3rd pairing is a gamble bit id rather grow a prospect ad gamble than pay for huskins and gamble.
I say pull the trigger on kaberle only if he isnt a rental. I want to build the club for a dynasty of cups. Not a one off and then be back to square one. Clowe is an overpay of kaberle is a rental.
by Madhatter on Feb 9, 2010 10:43 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Petrecki has struggled mightily in the AHL this year, and has been arguably one of their worst defensemen. He’ll get better, but he’d be lucky to crack the top pairing in the AHL, let alone be an NHL regular.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
Having stood next to Petrecki
I can tell you he isnt mini anything! The dude is a beast!
His skill set is mini in comparison to Murray’s though, so I see what you are saying.
"iaT"S FUCKINGE LIEK CONICO DO MAYO!!!!!111"
Mr. K. 5/5/2009
This is not the answer in a year the Sharks are trying to win a Cup. Mike Moore would be a player who is similar to Petrecki that would be called up if you are looking to bring a Worcester Shark into the fold, and even that would only be caused by some big injuries on the backend.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
I agree
That this isnt the answer this year but im thinking if we spent real time developing prospects instead of overpaying b league guys like husky we would be less in the cap whole. Petrecki may not be ready but between him moore and joslin, petrecki is the one that stood out to me. I know im beginning to be a broken petrecki record so ill leave it at that.
It just kills me watchin what husky brings for the price.
by Madhatter on Feb 9, 2010 2:53 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Demers only has 43 games played whereas Kaberle has 60 and is playing on a team that constantly is taking chances to score points because it was the only way they could win with the bleeding they were doing in net.
I’m not saying that Demers would match Kaberle in points if he had been up the whole season, but he wouldn’t be at half his output like he is now.
I don’t think we need a puck mover, I think we need to focus on a mother fucker if anything.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Agreed
So basically we want to fill our defensive defenseman void by getting an offensive defenseman? This makes our defense better by reducing the minutes on the other D-men? I don’t like the logic here. In this case the Sharks need a minute muncher, not an expensive O-D-man who is a liability in our end who can’t even play the PK. I understand the market is weak, but not this weak.
I think I'd be for the Kaberle trade mentioned
In my eyes, here’s the pros and cons of such a trade.
On the pro side, there are many reasons to like such a trade. First, Kaberle is a stud. Even just watching the game last night, he always seemed to be causing us problems in our own end. And while he didn’t tickle the twine, he was consistantly creating scoring chances and such. Even for a team with Danny B, we could use that. Teams will always have to be worrying about not only the forwards scoring, but the D men too…as one of Kaberle or Danny B would be out there all friggin night! That would be hell to defend against.
Also, Kaberle is signed for one more year after this. While having his 4.5 on the books for next season when we’re trying to resign people would be tough…we’d have Clowe’s 3.625 off the books, as well as Huskins’ 1.725…so we’re talking a wash. We’d still have as much space as we did before to try and sign Marleau and friends. I like that he has one more year left so we aren’t giving up all these assets on a rental. Not only will he be around to help us win a cup this year, but he’d be around to help us try to do so next year as well. I just think it’ll help his play with us. We all saw how Campbell played when he knew he’d only be here a few months.
Finally, and most importantly, in the playoffs, the most important thing you need to have to win the Cup is consistant, reliable scoring. It is really really hard to score goals in the playoffs. The more ways you can do so, the better chances your team will have. Last season, Detroit made it to the SCF with by far the most GF in the league, and only a middling GA. Pitt was tied for 3rd in GF, and also middling in GA. The previous season, the Wings won the Cup after being 3rd in GF. Chicago was high in GF. Yes, I know this is a simplistic look at things…but it just seems like the teams that win the Cup are the ones that light the lamp with extreme consistancy. The Sharks have been prone to scoring droughts over the years, and even at points this season. We can all say that scoring isn’t an issue, but it definately has been. And having another offensive threat, and especially one as elite as Kaberle, will definately be a big boost to our chances.
Obviously, the con side of this is the giving up of a first round pick, which we need to restock the farm system. Also, the perception is that this team is weak defensively, and should be looking to bolster up with a shutdown guy. Of course, the Sharks are still top 5 in GA so far this season, so maybe our issues have been exaggerated a little bit.
Finally, I guess this all comes down to how you see Wallin. I think Wallin, at least from what I’ve read on him, can be a reliable, shutdown type guy. Not a Vlasic or Murray, but definately can shut the door on the 3rd pairing. So if we’re rolling out with D-pairings of Murray-Boyle, Vlasic-Kaberle, Wallin-Blake, we should be covered on all D-pairings, and also be scary to defend against in the offensive zone. Bring up McGinn to play on the third line with Orts and Nichol (the three of them playing together earlier this season was pretty awesome), and we’ve got a team that can score at any time, and won’t be terrible defensively…which is really a pretty good build for a cup run.
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." ~Michael Scott
Good point on the numbers
I tend to think the rebuilding of lines 3 and 4 helps with the scoring issues. Anaheim dominated us line for line last year, and we never scored more than 2 goals against Detroit. The offense vanished against Edmonton. Dallas was a bit closer, the team suffered most from slow starts there.
In terms of giving up Clowe, I’m sour on it at this point in the season because calling up McGinn for the playoffs is not a recipe for success in my opinion. Dude’s spent way too much time on the Worcester Shuttle to be effective in the spring. There are ways in which you groom young players. This season’s salary cap shuffle has not been a glowing example of that. As much as we all love him and believe he’s the future for this team, I don’t see how he helps us in the postseason THIS season. He needs a full season in the bigs to make that happen. Or at least a season in which his stretches up and down are more consistent instead of every other game.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Well, if you don’t think McGinn can come in and play on the 3rd line with Orts and Nichol and produce, then you obviously don’t want to give up Clowe, who is producing on that line. I happen to think McGinn could come in and produce nearly the same as Clowe has been on the 3rd line, and that the addition of Kaberle would help our overall offense more than the status quo. Of course, that’s all speculation…but isn’t that what this entire thread is about?
I also think Kaberle’s defensive shortcomings are probably a) exaggerated a wee bit, and b) will be helped if paired with a shutdown guy. Pair him with Vlasic or Murray, and he has someone back for when he jumps into the play. His skating will allow him to get back and help if the opposition is on the rush…and the Sharks have been pretty good at getting non-defensive players to play decent defense. Huskins has gotten better, Heatley is seeing PK time, Boyle hasn’t been an abomination in the D end.
I just think Kaberle’s offensive addition would far outweigh any defensive shortcomings he brings to the blueline.
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." ~Michael Scott
by ZeroIndulgence on Feb 9, 2010 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
I may have overstated
I do think McGinn can EVENTUALLY produce on the third with Nichol and Ortmeyer. I just really think the Worcester Shuffle/Shuttle will make his production suffer on such short notice. He never got the chance to gel with anyone here since his time has been so up and down.
Then again, you need call-ups to cold produce, and maybe McGinn does that, so, what do I know.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
I agree 100%
I think our defensive issues are a little bit exaggerated, as are Kaberles defensive issues. I haven’t watched Kaberle all that much but he looked great defensively last night.
Plus, playing defensively is a style of play, not a personal trait; Kaberle is a talented player and if he needs to play more defensively the coaches will let him know and he can adjust accordingly. Obviously the physical aspect is one thing, Kaberle isn’t a very physical player but then neither is Vlasic and no one seems to have any real problems with Vlasics defensive play.
I think Kaberle would do amazing things for our scoring, and would be still be a solid defensemen that we could easily count on when playing against 3rd/4th line pairings.
no one seems to have any real problems with Vlasics defensive play.
Um, I don’t know that that’s true. Early in the year, people were REALLY down on Vlasic’s defensive zone play. Guy was getting beat by speedsters and getting pushed around by big bodies. He’s quietly turned it around a bit (coincidentally, I noticed him play better after his “fight” with Danny Briere) but to say no one has any real problems with him might be an overstatement. He’s cast as a shutdown defenseman, even though he’s built like a puck mover. He has very little offensive upside, and honestly, is a bit of a liability in the offensive zone, as he tends to treat the puck like a hot potato and is prone to shooting uncontested wristers with no traffic in front.
And if we’re paying Kaberle top 4 money to play against 3rd and 4th liners, I don’t see how that’s a recipe for success either.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Well I would think Boyle/Murray would be out there with the top 2 lines. I don’t mean to imply that he wouldn’t handle himself against 1st and 2nd liners.
Can you delete posts on here? i meant to hit reply.
Haha, no delete function
We’ve all missed the reply button once or twice.
Point is taken about Kaberle being able to play against top lines, but let me put it another way.
Kaberle is a $4.25M cap hit. If we’re going to put that kind of money on our D and then expect to line them up against other team’s 3rd and 4th lines, that’s not a recipe for success. Especially considering we’d be giving up a scoring forward (supposedly) in Ryane Clowe to make this deal happen.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
We wouldn’t be giving up any scoring. Kaberle would add a whole new dynamic to our scoring potential. He already has more points in the season than Ryan Clowe. He has 46 points this season and you gotta think that if he were playing with the kind of players we have on the Sharks all season long he would have even more than that. Plus I think McGinn can step up and fill Clowe’s shoes.
Can you delete posts on here? i meant to hit reply.
I’ll delete it right now. SBN doesn’t allow users to delete comments, probably because it would cause a lot of edits to arguments and dialogue. A pain in the ass, but ultimately beneficial.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
I think Nabokov has masked a lot of the defensive miscues that have plagued this team the entire year. The Sharks are currently 23rd in shots against this season, and the reason GA is so low is because Nabby has been this team’s MVP hands down. We were lucky to walk out of the building with two points last night, and the Chicago win (3-2, outshot something like 38-8 at even strength) comes to mind as one of the most telling examples of our blueline’s ability.
I’m going to check the stats against Western Conference playoff teams (I know we are 9-12 right now discluding shutouts), but I would assume the GA is higher there as well. Speculation, but I will get those hard stats to the masses tomorrow in the gameday article.
I’m not comfortable with the amount of starts he has been receiving, and think we’re due for a bit of a slide in SV% after the Olympics unless McLellan begins to start Greiss more. This is a reason I think we need to upgrade to a hard minutes defenseman, especially if Vlasic comes back and isn’t playing at the level he was at the last two months before he was injured.
All in all though, a good argument. I like how TCY and I are semi-split on acquiring Kaberle, and the community seems to be as well. Makes for good debate.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
I think part of the reason our shots allowed is so high is because that’s just part of the system the Sharks play. The sharks defensive system isn’t one that tries to completely eliminate shots on goal, but it’s one that makes sure to limit shots on goal to easily manageable ones that Nabokov can consistently stop. Usually sharks D men will focus on cutting off a passing lane while pushing the puckholder to the outside where he’ll have to take a shot from an angle where Nabokov can easily make the stop. While other D men on other teams might just attack the puck/puckholder which works well too assuming you have good/dependable defensemen that won’t let the puckholder get by them with the puck.
I think that defensive system is what enables us to do so well defensively with a less than stellar blueline.
I agree that usually works against non-playoff teams, but that’s not really my point. What concerns me is a) the record against Western Conference playoff teams and b) that the Sharks have difficulty against those teams in the shot department as well. For example:
Shot chart DET, February 2nd
Shot chart CHI, January 28th
Shot chart LA, January 19th
Those are the last three games San Jose has played against Western Conference potential playoff opponents, and in all of those they gave up a ton of shots in tight. Yes Boyle was out for two of those, and yes, Vlasic missed the Detroit game. I’m still not sure that changes my mind in the long run, because the defense has been a consistent black mark and these are just the most recent examples of what has been an issue since the beginning of the season. Other teams deal with injuries as well, Detroit has been banged up all year and still managed to elevate their game against San Jose.
The fact that the team is 9-12 against Western Conference playoff teams tells me that there is something that can stand to change.
I think the best way to fix that is with a defensive upgrade. This team is a Stanley Cup contender if they stand pat obviously, but they are in a much better position to do so if they bring in a strong defensive defenseman who can log minutes against the other teams best lines. I’m not completely against Kaberle, but I think that there are much cheaper options out there who will both be less costly as well as greater serve an area of need.
Call me old school, but we need a motherfucker.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
I dunno, you can look at that different ways. Maybe we just need to put more shots on net. The other teams gave up a lot of shots in those games as well. In the Chicago game we gave up 39 shots but Chicago also gave up 37 shots and I wouldn’t say Chicago has defensive issues.
San Jose consistently gives up a lot of shots (23rd in the league), while Chicago does not (1st in the league). Therefore, in my eyes, it is more likely that game was an anomaly in respect to Chicago, and a confirmation of trends in respect to San Jose.
There might be a logical fallacy in there, but I think it makes sense.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
Plank, how did you compute your “9-12 vs. WC playoff teams” stat? Against Chi, Van, Phx, LA, Col, Cal, and Nash (the 2-8 spots today) the Sharks are 12-7-4. If you take out SO outcomes, it becomes 8-9 (though I would argue that OT records should also be thrown out, since playoff OT is not 4-4, and thus the Sharks record would become 8-6).
If you sub Det for Calgary, then the numbers become 11-8-5 overall, with non SO outcomes at 7-10 and regulation only #‘s at 7-8. I know, not great numbers, but most of that is against Det/Chi (1-3-3). However, Chi is 1-3-1 against Van and Phx. I’m sure with Det’s record I could pick a few bad combos. Just wondering how you got to that.
Still, I guess I’m just not that worried about a few regular season games. The Sharks are #3 in GAA (and yes, Nabby has played well, but I think we do not give enough credit to the solid play of the Dmen, particularly Vlasic, Huskins, Leach, and Demers). They are #2 in GFA. They have grinders, snipers, playmakers, speed, size, offensive Dmen, stay-at-home guys, PP specialists, youth, experience, and goaltending.
The weakest area, physicality on the back line, has been addressed in a very subtle but effective manner. They have dealt with injuries superbly. I just don’t see a reason to shake the team up, I can’t help but think it would send the wrong message to the team.
It’s from earlier up in the comment thread when I reference that the number discludes shootouts, and the entire discussion is based off this article three games ago. I should have mentioned it includes Detroit as the 9 seed— I think they definitely need to be involved in the playoff conversation. Cherry picking maybe, but something I feel is relevant.
Overtime losses are also included in that, so without the OT loss they would be 9-9 I believe. Not sure what their record would be without the overtime wins. The fact that it’s 4v4 is a good point, and one that I ultimately deemed relevant, but I definitely see where you are coming from in that regard.
As for the general state of the team, mentioned somewhere in this swamp of comments, I try and make it clear that they are a Stanley Cup contender. They most definitely are. This has never been a question of that to me.
The question I ask myself is whether or not they can make an upgrade and become even better. I definitely think they can. That’s the purpose of these trade target articles (another tomorrow!)— not to say that the sky is falling, but to acknowledge that there is an opportunity to make the team better in the trade market without sacrificing a whole lot of future assets.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
I should have mentioned it includes Detroit as the 9 seed— I think they definitely need to be involved in the playoff conversation. Cherry picking maybe, but something I feel is relevant.
To put it another way…
Against the 2-9 seeds in the Western Conference, the San Jose Sharks are 9-9-3 in non-shootout games.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
Good Point Fin
I so agree with you Fin that Nabby’s workload and all the shots he has seen, has got to be a concern, especially with the added stress and pressure of the Olympics..Nabby will be having two playoff seasons this year and I hope the front office and coaches realize this before its too late..
The other issue is Greiss has played extremely well for a guy who only sees the ice every 15 games..
I am also split on Kaberle, if we can’t get a MF(Which I think we need more than Kaberle), I do agree that having a defenseman that can play 20 minutes and help take the load off the other guys and would be a powerplay stud, has its upside..
Looking forward to seeing what DW will do between now and the deadline..I will say that Wallin isn’t a stud MF, but he is a physical player and someone that will do the job when guys are parked in front of Nabby..
Maybe its just me, but I really don’t see the defense as being the big issue for us in the coming playoffs. Good teams are going to get their shots against any defense. And its the teams that can create those chances no matter who they are facing that are going to have the most success.
This is not to say we should ignore defense, but I think an offensive puck mover on the blue line to play when Boyle isn’t on the ice will give us a much more dynamic offense, and the ability to control play a little more. One way to play good defense is to be on offense a lot of the time. If we’re controling play, we’re not giving up goals. That’s a good thing.
Also, as Khaaz was saying in an earlier reply, the Sharks’ scheme on defense has looked pretty good in giving up easier to defend shots. Maybe this hasn’t always been the case, but it would account for why we’re still top 5 in GA (even with having played more games than some other teams). Obviously Nabby has been phenomenal, but the defense hasn’t left him out to dry as much as we think. Its just that when it has happened this season, its happened spectacularly, and in bunches.
In the end, we can all find stats that prove what we want. I can say our defense is fine because we’ve given up the 5th fewest goals in the league, and you can say its in trouble because we’ve given up lots of shots to Chicago and Detroit. In the end, it comes down to one’s philosophy on the best way to win in the playoffs. Do you win by stifling the other team’s offense, or do you win by scoring a bunch, even if it means giving up a few more goals from time to time.
I just think, and the past few teams to win the Cup have had these qualities as well, that a dynamic scoring team that has solid goaltending (which we have in Nabby…especially if he keeps it up) is going to have more success than a shutdown type of defensive team who picks its spots or has one line of scoring that’s easier to shut down. Kaberle spreads out the scoring on the blueline and will help us have two dangerous pp units and still be dangerous on offense even when Boyle is on the bench getting a rest.
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." ~Michael Scott
by ZeroIndulgence on Feb 9, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
Red Herrings
It is possible that our D only looks bad when the forwards don’t backcheck.
We have a fairly responsible group of forwards defensively, but they do have the odd brainfart when it comes to their own zone, which is as big a problem as not having big physical d-men.
Might just be a live/die by the sword deal.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
ehh
Id like this trade as an offseason deal. But as far as midseason im not to keen on letting clowe go. Ive liked his physical play this year and i he still gives us that threat to score. Also the first round draft pick is making me a little worried. Having given it up for the past two years i was very pleased that DW was able to hold on to it when aquiring heatley. Having already given up a second rounder to carolina then going and giving up clowe and a first rounder to toronto makes me cringe a little. Whilst clowe isnt scoring at a high rate right now( i do know he is on pace for a career high) giving him up will deplete our forwards even more. Mcginn is a great player and i cant wait for the day hes regulary playing with the team but with all his back and forth im afraid he might not be as effective in the playoffs as he would if he had been up here all season. However despite all that if DW does pull the trigger on this trade i know i will be expeiencing a lot of guilty pleasure.
"Thats a lot of hoopage"- Randy Hahn 2/4/10
New idea!
How about Clowe + Huskins + 1st for Kaberle + 5th
and
Hejda for Mitchell + (Ferriero?)
Go Sharks!
That would be difficult to make happen from a capstand point, I think. Also gives us one too many dmen:
Boyle – Murray
Kaberle – Vlasic
Blake – Hejda
Wallin – Leach
Leach is valuable to our team. He is fairly solid on the third pairing and his cap hit ridiculously small. For a team flirting with the cap ceiling it has been nice having something other than just a warm body for our 7th Dman
by jMoneyBrah on Feb 9, 2010 1:04 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
True that.
But we don’t want Murray on the 1st pairing- we want a strong Defensive D-man, and we want more offense…so how do we put offensive with good defense together into one D-man that’s top-4 quality…pretty hard isn’t it?
Go Sharks!
Oh Kaberle...
Some people here (myself included) think he would be a perfect fit for our team this year…. and others think the exact opposite. Kind of interesting how polarized people are on this theoretical deal.
I think if you have a chance to get this guy, you got to make that happen. He is a game changer.
Some people here (myself included) think he would be a perfect fit for our team this year…. and others think the exact opposite. Kind of interesting how polarized people are on this theoretical deal.
Personally I like it. I think FTF tends to experience groupthink a lot of the time in the comments, hell, I do as well. This is healthy.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
I like it too. Maybe we should send this thread over to Kaberle and he can just tell us if he is willing to move his NTC for the Sharks or not. : )
Maybe Kaberle is a closet wolly mammoth fan
I’ll be Joe Thornton could convince him to waive his NTC to come to a team of wolly mammoth lovers.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Agree
On some level, I think it’s about bringing in talent. There was a huge void defensively two seasons ago before bringing aboard Campbell and while that didn’t work out in the playoffs, he did have an impact in slotting the rest of the defense and offensively. Having an elite level puckmover can help your defence. Plus, there is not exactly an oversupply of Robyn Regeher types available, and really, all-star defencemen are not that available to begin with.
Kaberle’s offensive prowess is overshadowing his defensive abilities, here. He’s not Ozolinsh, and in all likelihood, he’s better than anyone else on the roster defensively outside of Vlasic, or certainly no worse. He’s played in the World Cup and 3 Olympic teams. So if he’s no worse defensively, which is sort of a worst-case scenario, at least he brings another elite level component addition to the roster.
Yeah it seems like everyone is thinking of Kaberle as this guy who doesn’t know wtf he’s doing in his own zone; he’s a great/talented player. Yeah he plays a more offensive style of hockey, but that doesn’t mean he can’t play strong defense when needed. At the end of the day he’s just a damn good player who add a whole new dynamic to our teams scoring while also adding a lot more depth on our blue line. Lets not forget another concern for the Sharks is secondary scoring. Getting Kaberle hits 2 birds with one stone imo.
Personally, I’m not a fan of this idea. While Kaberle will shore up our blue line puck-moving-wise, his price will hurt the Sharks’ forward depth and future. I’m kind of tired of not having first round picks, no matter how adept Doug Wilson and Tim Burke are at finding late-round steals. And the players we will have to give up because of cap issues (i.e. Clowe and Mitchell/Huskins) isn’t something that I am willing to do.
Granted, I’m not a huge fan of the Wallin trade, either. I’m perfectly fine with how the Sharks are, and I have faith in the Worcester Shuttle members in providing a good spark for the playoffs and for injuries. But that might just be my sentimentalism, haha.
"I think I realized after the second or third punch, I should have taken his helmet off sooner." - Ryane Clowe
Proud member of the "Re-Sign Marleau" Club
Fools and Sages
I hadn’t even thought about this before but is there any possibility of Vlasic being traded? I wouldn’t want that to happen but is that something that DW could be considering? Also what’s his salary cap?
Vlasic is $3.1M
I hear tell that Plank and/or TCY have ordered hits on anyone who has suggested trading Pickles on this board, but it doesn’t stop me. Heck, I wrote a whole post on it in the offseason before the Ehrhoff trade.
As much as I’m not a Vlasic fan, he’s also not very tradable for us. He’s young, which is good. Anyone we trade him for is going to be older, so with less upside. There’s not a huge market for a positionally strong yet undersized defenseman. And by that, I don’t mean he’s not going to be a very very fine defenseman someday, it’s just that no one is going to look at his size and his numbers and assume he’s an asset they’ll trade for, let alone give value for.
Vlasic may have his faults, but I don’t really see how, without 3 or 4 very interconnected moves, we get better without him. Who is going to give us a true physical shutdown d-man for him?
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
OMG I’m just not getting into this again.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
by TCY on Feb 9, 2010 1:59 PM PST up reply actions
Hey hey hey
There’s no actual discussion of trading Vlasic here. We’re not saying that! No ninjas please!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
As TCY mentioned earlier, I made a vow to inflict severe bodily hurt on anyone who mentioned trading Vlasic on Fear The Fin. Not because I don’t enjoy debate, but because I think you’re absolutely insane to even consider the possibility. He’s 22 years old, signed for three more years at a $3.1 M cap hit, faces the toughest competition every single night, and is currently sixth in James Mirtle’s Rod Langway Award watch. Just something to chew on whenever you get the trade deadline itch.
- Plank, January 30th
In summation, I just think you’re insane.
Paging Thane Krios, paging Thane Krios— we need a hit on ElvisVF101, repeat, a hit on ElvisVF101.
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
LOL I DONT WANT TO TRADE VLASIC
I love Vlasic and in time once he gets some more confidence in his game I think he’ll provide some solid offense while still playing great defensively. I was asking cuz i was afraid that it could be a possible option for DW when i don’t think it should.
le sigh...
Back to Witness Protection…
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
meh welcome to my world…ever since trade rumors have started I’m completely blown out of the conversations. I’ve become just a voyeur at this point.
"Boys only voluntarily hug when someone scores."
"Hockey players wear numbers because you can’t always identify the body with dental records."—Anonymous
by mssjsclowie29 on Feb 9, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
Playoffs
I would like to see him showup in the playoffs..He was terrible against the Ducks last year, don’t forget that Plank!! I am another one who isn’t very impressed with his development..I think the jury is still out on him..
Your mancrush on him, I don’t see it..
Let’s put it this way, Vlasic is probably Scott Niedermayer without the offensive instincts. If you cut Niedermayer’s offensive contributions in half when he was 22, well, there is Vlasic. Both are 6-1, 200 pounds, yet no one calls Nieds undersized.
I can’t agree more, Plank. Vlasic @ $3.1mil is a steal for his skill level and upside. DW has to know this, and I would bet that in 5 years Vlasic has an A on his sweater right next to Joe Pavelski’s C.
Fantastic take
Wow, decisions, decisions.
For starters, I just cannot give up on Ryan Clowe. He’s tough as nails, does all the dirty work along the boards, and actually has some pretty good Offensive skills.
He’s smart (has high hockey acumen) and is a real team leader. Kaberle, although very tempting, cannot fill that void Clowe would leave as far as toughness and sandpaper. This team actually needs more grit, not more scoring, especially in the playoffs. I agree with Plank, get a guy like Hamhuis for 1/2 the price, but please keep Clowe, we’ll need him come playoff time.
I disagree!
Clowe reminds me of a lost dumb cow who’s running around hitting what he can, trying to protect the puck and often failing, sometimes with nice hands but mostly failing to score, occasionally decent in the playoffs…his value is lower than his salary – if we can get a top-4 D or Whitney for him, he is 99.9% expendable, but that’s just my take…
As for Vlasic, don’t trade him – unlike Clowe or Ehrhoff, I sense prime years of success for the guy, so keep him!
Don’t flame please – just my views D:
Go Sharks!
Sorry for Double post!
Kaberle would provide high class and offense
As for grit, Nichol and Co will take care of it…we don’t lose much from Clowe for what we’re getting in return – if we could get Whitney for Seto, that would be great as well (I sense a Cheechoo coming out of Seto…)
Go Sharks!
Clowe has great O skills for a 3rd liner, but is below par for a 2nd liner (or average, but you need above average on a Cup-caliber team). I’m glad he is dominating on the 3rd line, but he is miscast as a top 6 guy on a top team. With that, i think he is overpaid but should not be moved until the offseason.
Seems about right...
I mean, the only reason people have been all “oh Marleau is playing SO MUCH BETTER without the C” is becuase he’s been leading the league in goals until last week. That makes him more visible. But overall, his point production and two-way play ability seems to be pretty much in line with last year. Now lets just hope he stays healthy.
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me." ~Michael Scott
by ZeroIndulgence on Feb 9, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
Another unrelated thing
I dug up an old Down Goes Brown article. I love this guy.
“For those who don’t know, Eklund’s rumor rating scale is as follows:
e1 – Made up
e2 – Made up
e3 – Made up
e4 – Made up
e5 – Reported on ESPN ticker half an hour ago"
No more soft players!!!!
8 of the Sharks top 10 players are soft, mentally and physically soft. 5 of their top 6 forwards and 3 of their top 4 defensemen. That is why they do not win in the clutch. Clowe is the only one of the Sharks top 6 forwards who is not soft. The problem is mostly on offense. But having Vlasic, Boyle, & Blake (all soft, skill players with little to no grit) on the same defense doesn’t help. Each, as an individual piece, is physically gifted, granted, but an entire roster of the type of players that the sharks are front-loaded with does not win playoff hockey games. Playoff hockey is dirty, and the sharks have a roster full of pretty boys who don’t want to pay the price to play tough. You want to trade the only tough forward that the sharks have who is even remotely skilled in exchange for another soft, skill-based defenseman. This is the stupidest idea I have ever heard of. The Sharks need more players like Clowe, not less. Ideally, they need a player with Clowe’s physical mentality who is also a little more gifted. Clowe has some skill, but he’s inconsistant. Basically, they need a player like Clowe who contributes more consistantly.
Heh.
Fear the Fin: Sharing Joe Thornton's love of wooly mammoths since 2009.
by TCY on Feb 9, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
Nah
Why is everyone wanting to get rid of Clowe? I don’t think any trade that involves getting rid of him is a good option. He’s producing just fine and his line produced all the offense last night against the Leaves. If you want to sacrifice young talent for Kaberle ship off Seto he’s been awful since his injury. Seto and Huskins for Kaberle. Ideally though, lets not get rid of Clowe OR Seto. How bout that? Honestly, whats wrong with keeping Demers up? He seems to play very well and contribute each time he’s in the line up (minus the most recent Chicago game). I think the proposed trade in this post is just as dumb as trading a 2nd pick away for another old guy. That plan already failed (see last season).
I got nothing against Clowe as a player, but I don’t think his production is worth the salary cap hit. Also I don’t think we have the cap space to bring up guys like Demers anymore since aquiring Wallin; which is another reason i’m interested in making a trade, so we can free up some cap space and give guys like McGinn, Demers, or Couture a shot.
I definitely don’t want to get rid of Seto, he’s shown what he’s capable of and he just needs to perform on a more consistent basis. If you’re worried about sacrificing young talent I don’t see how you can suggest shipping off Seto. Seto is cheaper than Clowe and has a LOT more potential than Clowe. Clowe isn’t even that young. I can see him improving but i don’t see him turning into much more than he is now.
Ya I hear what you’re saying, I guess I just really like seeing Clowe in teal. DW talked all offseason about signing guys who had that grit and desire we seem to lack in the playoffs, and then he signs Clowe to a 4 year deal. That says something. I just think Clowe is exactly the type of player we need to keep around for the playoffs, not ship off in the hopes that another guy will be the answer to all our problems. The other post about trading Clowe and Huskins away for Torres and Hejda is closer to ideal, but I dunno, shipping off Clowe just doesn’t seem like a good decision (or the right one).
It would be great to get Kaberle, but I agree with Plank in that they should consider looking for a cheaper option if they can. Plus, Clowe has developed some nice chemistry with both the second and third lines.
Proud member of the "Don't Trade Marleau" club.
Fear the Fin: Where Sharks Fans Aren't Like Other Sharks Fans.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Feb 9, 2010 6:47 PM PST reply actions
Agreed
Against Toronto, the 2nd line including Clowe combined for 4 points. Aside from HTML and Boyle, Clowe’s our man and Pav’s is hot right now.
I would trust my child to anyone on the team --- except ---- well ---- yea, probably everyone. Including Douglas Murray (laughs). - Jody Shelley
We need a Grandmother Fucker!
If anyone, we need someone who just doesn’t give a damn, has a drinking problem, eats raw steak, drives a 73 silverado camper special (and looks like one), chews long leaf, and grows facial hair like a yehti. Someone everyone else is uncomfortable being around, keeps things edgy.
I.M.O. we have the skill, but we lack the will.
This may not be the popular opinion here, but would it be so wrong for willson to hold a meeting as soon as the break is over (before the deadline is even over) and tell the team, “I’m making no further roster changes to this team, this is your team from here on out.”
I mean isn’t that holding the players accountable like he said he was going to do? Bringing in someone else is a cop-out. Step up now, no one is going to do it for you.
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