Willie Mitchell signs with Los Angeles
by Mr. Plank on Aug 25, 2010 4:18 PM PDT
in Armchair GM
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Print2 years, $3.5MM a pop.
1) auscbailkvhwiodjkvbdjsbvujbvuvub
2) That might be one year too many for a guy coming off a concussion, but if Mitchell remains healthy during the next two years, there is no argument worth listening to that should ever make you think he won't be worth the cash. As I mentioned before, only Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara, and Marc Staal faced a higher quality of competition last season while giving up less goals against at even strength. He's a premier shutdown defenseman that immediately turns Los Angeles into a legitimate top five team in the West (Detroit, Vancouver, San Jose, and Chicago being the other big guns). The Pacific Division just got very interesting.
3) Again, back to the concussion issues. God forbid Mitchell take another lump this year and be forced out of action, but if he does, Los Angeles puts him on the LTIR and suddenly has $3.5MM in cap space to work with if they want to add another blueliner. The notion that just because he's one hit away from the end of a career affects nothing but the amount of money the organization will be paying out of pocket for his services-- in other words, the injury risk seems a bit overblown to me, and factors very little into my assessment of the deal considering cap space immediately is freed up if he goes on LTIR.
4) My guess is that Doug Wilson wasn't the only one in the Sharks organization who dipped his toes into negotiations with Mitchell and his agent. I would assume that Sharks upper management cited their concerns over Mitchell's injury history and had some sort of sway (however small) over how high San Jose was willing to go in the bidding war. It's unlikely they were willing to take a plunge into concussion territory and risk having to pay a guy $3.5MM to sit in the press box for the next two years if he gets injured.
5) Mitchell is everything the Sharks need, and he was a free agent. This is a basic idea, but one I feel needs to be stated here-- your roster improves with the signing of Mitchell and you lose nothing except Jay Leach (who would be demoted to Worcester and put San Jose under the salary cap ceiling). That's the beauty of a free agent signing-- the loss is only cap space, and not roster players/futures.
6) Am I surprised the Sharks balked at a two year deal worth $3.5MM per? Not especially. Wilson and Co. are notorious for playing it close to the vest during free agency, with the GM himself citing "the frenzy" of free agency that causes teams to overpay for players. The term was likely the issues that made the team balk, and as much as it hurts to say, I can respect that. I don't agree with it, but I can respect it.
7) Along those lines, there's no telling if $3.5MM for two years would have even got Mitchell to come to San Jose-- maybe he wanted to live in Los Angeles, enjoyed the culture of the Kings dressing room more than the Sharks, or felt more comfortable with their coaching and training staff. There are a lot of factors involved which we have no idea of.
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9) Doug Wilson has enough depth on his blueline. The Sharks still need an impact top three guy to come in and log heavy minutes, which will cost you at the trade table.
10) Right now, right here, at this moment in time, San Jose has two legitimate trade pieces to work with if they want to acquire a top three defenseman-- Douglas Murray and Ryane Clowe. A top three defenseman will likely run you a roster player and futures, so if you're looking to make an upgrade, it's probably safe to say that these are the two pieces who will be involved in negotiations.
11) Trading Douglas Murray leaves you with a hole on the blueline-- again, back to the free agency point, signing a guy costs you nothing but cap space, while trading for a player costs you talent within the organization. If Murray leaves, Wallin is still in the top four (which I am not a fan of). Either that, or you pray Jason Demers can really turn the corner this year defensively and get you twenty minutes a night.
12) That is, unless Wilson finds a bargain deal in free agency and signs a guy like Mike Mottau or Paul Mara. Then you have enough top four talent to move Murray and futures for a top three blueliner, pushing Wallin to the bottom pairing and restoring order to the Force.
12) Trading Ryane Clowe probably makes the most sense. He has more value than Murray, has term left on his contract (which is a big plus for teams who are rebuilding and shopping their best defenseman), and clears enough space for the Sharks to go after free agent wingers like Owen Nolan. That being said, it still opens up a hole in the top six of the Sharks, meaning Logan Couture gets bumped off that third line and joins Joe Pavelski on the second. I'm completely fine with that provided San Jose gets a third line center to fill Couture's hole*.
*You gotta pay the troll toll, if you wanna fill that boy's hole.
13) Another option is to extend another offer sheet to a guy like Marc Staal (NYR) or Matt Niskanen (DAL). The Stars are in a load of financial trouble right now and could experience some issues matching an offer, while the Rangers would dump Redden into the minors and match Staal's. Either way, that's another option before the season begins before we focus exclusively on potential trades.
14) The butterflies in my stomach have turned to scorpions, hope swallowed by the sun. My wound is no longer geography, but the cautious tongue of my benevolent overlord.
Farewell my prince. Best of luck in smoggy Los Angeles.
Go Sharks.
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/sigh.
I agree that trading Ryan Clowe is making the most sense right now.
by AppleSweetRose on Aug 25, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
*You gotta pay the troll toll, if you wanna fill that boy’s hole.
Rofl, definately one of my favorite Sunny episodes!
You are far too depressed about this. The Sharks never sign UFAs…really, this should have been no different than what we should have expected.
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Great fucking episode, one of the best. Can’t wait for the new season to begin in mid-September.
As for the Mitchell depression, this is the first time in a very long time that San Jose was legitimately connected to a premier free agent for nearly a month— in the past, it’s pretty much been fan rosterbation that has fueled the frenzy. We knew for a fact that DW was interested in Mitchell (evidenced by the Sharks asking him to work out for the team), and we knew for a fact that DW was looking for a top three defenseman (evidenced by the Hjalmarsson offer sheet). There was certainly much more here than other years.
The fact that it now comes down to ditching either Clowe or Murray also pains me. I love Murray to death from an emotional standpoint, and despite the fact that I have been banging the drum on ditching Clowe for the better part of six months in order to acquire a blueliner, he’s a guy I really enjoy to watch play the game of hockey.
Coupled with a year of yearning for a premier shutdown defenseman, a yearning that could be compared to the white hot passion of a thousand suns, and suddenly you have a guy who is pretty fucking depressed about missing out on Mitchell.
"San Jose is where I want to be at the end of the day, and there's an opportunity now to make it there. It is where my heart is." - Jamie McGinn, 2/22/10
Fear The Fin: Where Selling Your Soul Is The Likely Solution
Yeah, I hear ya. Guess I just never really expected Mitchell to sign here once I heard 4-5 teams were interested in his services.
And yeah, the new Sunny season can’t get here soon enough!
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 25, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
DAY MAN!
Fighter of the night man! AHH AHH AHHHH!
That song is awesome.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
That's the episode that got me to like Always Sunny
Shameless radio show plug. Also, here's my twitter.
"The last time I made a video in a hotel room…..very different than this." – Drew Remenda
Proud founder of the "Bring Back Semenov" Club
I only recently sat down and watched the show
Just tore through it in about a week. Once I saw S1E1 I was pretty sure it was going to be my favorite show ever. Favorite episode has to be the one where they create that song. Something about Charlie saying, “Uh…I’ve been huffing glue guys,” kills me every time.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
It's a bad sign...
When a simple quote from a show about Philly makes me smile more than the Sharks off-season moves thus far.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo Montoya
So, whats next?
I have no idea. But trading pieces sounds like a bad option. It’s been said before, our deadline deals are horrible. But not even looking at the deadline, unless we are trading someone like Huskins (not happening) and futures, then we are going to be creating holes in the roster. I have no idea what DW is thinking to do next, but damn, does he have a challenge on his plate.
Deadline deals are bad, but DW has six months before we get into that territory. He does magic for all other trades.
Boyle, Thornton, Heatley is all I need to say here.
Fear the Fin - where Russians are underappreciated.
My guess is that Doug Wilson wasn’t the only one in the Sharks organization who dipped his toes into negotiations with Mitchell and his agent.
I think that’s a huge one in this case. All we care about is the cap space. DW and especially the owners also care about the bottom line that’s not connected to the salary cap but represents actual cash outflow, whether he’s playing or retired.
It’s still a business.
Fear the Fin - where Russians are underappreciated.
I’d argue insurance would have covered his salary (the New York Islanders are not paying DiPietro any actual money right now), so it’s even more of a bogus argument.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
I’m not sure any of us know how insurance affects player contracts, but I have to doubt there are companies lining up to cover that contract with that type of injury.
There seems to be a big divide over the injury risk with Mitchell here. LTIR isn’t a panacea, no one knows if a concussion is going to knock a guy out for a few weeks or end his career. But as far as potential to be healthy or risk, I guess it is the most unknown injury. Potential for great value, potential for a guy to play 30 games off and on because he gets dizzy from too much light.
I hope the best for Mitchell, he is a great player. I also hope (and believe) that LA is still a top 6 forward away from the upper echelon. But that’s why they play the games :-)
by ruben398 on Aug 26, 2010 8:25 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Premiums would be higher, but you could get insurance on the player.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Here is an interesting article on baseball insurance premiums
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/71425
Pretty short, but something I’ve never considered when thinking about payroll. Apparently, not every player contract is insured, though I would have to think Mitchell’s is. Then again, for a contract with that short of a duration, maybe the cost of the insurance was is prohibitive?
Man, speculating about the Kings Insurance policy on Willie Mitchell… it must be a slow offseason!
What about Bieska?
Does DW go for him? He can get a deal considering Vancover needs to move him to get under the cap. He’s not the shutdown guy that Willie is, but he’s got some offensive upside.
Latest word out of VAN is that Bieksa isn’t going anywhere.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 25, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Really?
I hadn’t heard that. Last I heard was that they were going to have to move him or someone to get under the cap.
TCY tweeted yesterday:
With Raffi Torres supposedly signing in VAN for $1MM, the team is now almost $4MM over the cap. Moving Bieksa gets them under, but not enough to sign Mitchell. Appears as if Mitchell’s options are really down to LA, SJ and WAS now.
I read they are probably going to keep him until Salo comes off injury. So if they do trade it probably wont be until the season has already started
Not quite 4 mil.
The Canucks have 5.5 mil starting the season on the LTIR , with Burrows joining Salo. That lets us go over for until December probably.
Maybe he moves, maybe he doesn’t.
I wouldn’t count on him being moved to the Sharks though. Signing our UFAs is one thing. Trading with a team that you might see in the WCF is another.
Yeah, with Salo on LTIR to start the season, they’ll be able to go over the cap for a bit and they need to keep Bieksa to fill that hole on defense. He’s not moving…at least not for a while.
I heard on Twitter from some reporters that VAN was gonna keep Bieksa after they were informed Mitchell was signing elsewhere.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Zero…that was more the Twitterati rationalizing it after the Willie decision became apparent.
Everybody tries to have their rumor right there, but the reality was that Gillis said right after returning home that “We’re keeping Bieksa”.
Everybody snickered a bit, because it doesn’t fit well with rumor guys giving people something to talk about for the summer.
If we had gotten Mitchell, Bieksa would have been gone. He may still be later on. But I wouldn’t totally discount him kicking ass to start the season ( dude IS in a contract year ) and staying. We don’t even know how Sami is healing…dude is 36 and a ruptured Achilles sucks. He is still in a cast. If it turns out he can’t come back, or can’t come back until late in the season or the playoffs…well…that is another way to handle the Cap in today’s NHL.
It is a depreciating table. Once you pay through the season, these deals and solutions become easier, because you can get more bang for your Cap dollar.
That tweet didn’t imply that I thought they were moving Bieksa. I know that they can put Salo on LTIR, so Bieksa can stay, but there was no way they were adding Mitchell after they signed Torres, especially after Mitchell got $3.5MM.
Fear the Fin: "I've always said that if you don't have the motivation within you... It's not Doug Wilson's job to motivate me. I've got motivation within myself, especially going through some of the experiences that I had last year." - Nick Petrecki
by Matthew_Taylor on Aug 27, 2010 7:02 AM PDT up reply actions
“It is a depreciating table. Once you pay through the season, these deals and solutions become easier, because you can get more bang for your Cap dollar.”
What does that even mean?
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
It means, ED, that once you have paid a player ..say…half his salary half way through the season, while he is on the LTIR, when he comes back, you only need to clear 1.75 mil of Cap at that time for a 3.5 mil player.
Sorry, could have explained that better. And its also, conversely, why teams like to carry some Cap space through the season, so as to be able to afford a player that has a Cap hit value higher than what you have to spend.
Better?
While that’s true, you have also spent through half of your cap and only have half left.
You’ll be operating above the cap so you wont have accrued any space. He won’t be any easier to fit in February than he is in October.
So you only need to pay him 1.75 on the books but you have half the money to do it with. This is a circular argument, but in the cap situation the Nucks are in it’s easiest to just look at it as a fixed number because the results are the same. Pretend the cap hit is 3.5 throughout the year and the cap is 58.2 (or whatever it is) throughout the year. It works out the same.
I swear we’ve discussed this before.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Yep. I don’t know why …but I guess we are again. ( ;-) I was right then, and you were right then. Its just semantics I think.
There is a reason teams keep an extra 500K. Gillis used to do it last year. Keeping a mil or two in abeyance is how they would work that deal for a retiring contract on an older star on a younger,cheaper,rebuilding,etc…team.(or not? )… what I said then …(Sundin? ) and now about relative cap value. Maybe that is it.
Its what makes it easier for teams to make deals at the deadline.
The team was allowed to pay a 3.5 mil player over the cap by his relative cap hit. When he comes back, is he at 3.5? No. But he is a 3.5 mil player in talent. He is going to cost them 1.75. How do you have half the money? If you had 500K in buffer space, it is still 500K. But it is paying a guy that has a nut of half his relative value. That makes sense right? You had a budget of 59 mil allowed, You budgeted and have expenses for 57. You can still spend up to 59 right? Is that not how they do those things? I am sure the media mavens were telling me that Sundin could only start at a certain date because of the relative value of his contract.
Maybe it was all bull droppings and media mavening, but tbat is what I git from it anyhow.
This year GMMG seems to be buying everyone and moving guys as he can…risking waivers in the future with some of the guys he has acquired. Last year he did similar, but more conservative and keeping the money.
Those LTIR shenanigans only work if you spend over. He had a different thing going his first year, when the Canucks didn’t spend to the cap like the next years.
It seems a more go for it philosophy. We’ll see.
I welcome your shattering of my immutable logic with your penetrating causal math hex ( How do I work the counterspell again? LOL ).
All in good fun. I think maybe we are both saying the same thing a little differently.
It happens.
Yeah, it’s less about how much the players make and a lot more about how much you are below the cap.
If you’re operating 500k below the cap half way through the season you haven’t spent 250k of your allotted dollars. That’s 250K you can put to a player you added, so instead of having 500k of space you actually have 750k of space remaining.
Unfortunately it won’t work out for the Nucks this year that way, but its starting to look like the Sharks will have about 5M in cap space when the deadline rolls around… Damnit Mitchell… why LA?
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Now my pipe dream for a defenseman shifts to Robyn Regher.
Oh hockey gods, please smile upon the San Jose Sharks for once and have Darryl Sutter make another bone-headed trade.
Don't let the name deceive you, I'm not just a Sharks fan but a Lakers, 49ers, Angels, Giants (and to a lesser extent) Capitals, and Titans fan.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Aug 25, 2010 5:29 PM PDT reply actions
I’d love to get Regehr…
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 25, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
New WTC
Yes, the Sharks were interested in Willie Mitchell, the veteran defenseman who signed a two-year, $7 million deal today with the Los Angeles Kings after missing most of last season with concussion-related problems.
But the problem wasn’t money — it was term. The Sharks, who reportedly brought Mitchell to San Jose last week, weren’t ready to make the multi-year commitment that Mitchell was seeking. Neither were at least two other teams in the hunt. But the Kings were and now that’s where the 33-year-old will be playing.
Link.
Proud member of the "Bring back Semenov" Club !!
The new WTC also says do not expect to see Owen Nolan as a Shark…
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 25, 2010 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
David Pollak always makes me feel better.
Don't let the name deceive you, I'm not just a Sharks fan but a Lakers, 49ers, Angels, Giants (and to a lesser extent) Capitals, and Titans fan.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Aug 25, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I never really thought of a two year deal as “multi-year”.
I’d be concerned that Mitchell was not willing to roll the dice on himself. Why not one tryout year followed by a multi-year with a salary bump?
Why would he roll the dice if someone offers him a better contract with more years?
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 25, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Clowe for Stall would be awesome for the Sharks.
I can see NYR trying to match any offer and not letting him walk for just picks, But Maybe there would be some ground there if Stall continues to ask for more cash.
Stall for Clowe and Joslin
Rangers would improve two roster spot and still stay under the cap.
I would love that deal
but do you think thats possible? I get the feelings we would need to give up more for NY to give up their best shutdown defensenman and, quite frankly, one of the best in the league
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Aug 25, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
No way is that possible.
Shameless radio show plug. Also, here's my twitter.
"The last time I made a video in a hotel room…..very different than this." – Drew Remenda
Proud founder of the "Bring Back Semenov" Club
Leave Murray out of this!! ugh! I don’t think I could handle losing Nabby & Murray both.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Nabby > Murray
Murray is nowhere near his level…I couldn’t care less about him if we get an awesome shut-down D instead of him :-)
Go Sharks!
I never implied Murray was greater than Nabby … just emotionally losing both … nope … don’t want to think about it.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
I'm with you on this on Angy!!
And what’s the advice (Murray’s grandfather, Lars [Lasse] Bjorn) gives him?
"Hit more people."
no you were right the first time
shark
we only need one of us to be better than them
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Aug 26, 2010 12:44 AM PDT up reply actions
News like this
makes me want to lower my shoulder into someone on the street who is walking with their head down. But I’m worried I’ll get called for a major and risk a suspension. Better make sure I don’t leave my feet (what a ridiculous expression).
Is it hockey season yet?
WE ARE DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WITHOUT OUR SAVIOUR OUR DEFENSE WILL BE THE WORST IN HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We’ll finish so poorly we are relegated to the AHL (Why haven’t the Oilers been yet?) There is no Hope! I mean our offense can only score so many hundreds of goals.
THIS IS THE END!!!!!!!!
I'm warning you! I have ADHD and I know how to use it!!!
We are all gona DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Like I said, it’s like me giving you a high-five and chest bump after you hit for the cycle against the kid in the wheelchair." Vacafan on May 14, 2010
WILD CARD BITCHES!
Oh well. Might as well think of a funny Sunny quote than focus on the gaping sore spot that is the defense.
Waiting for the June when the 'San Jose Sharks' become the 'Stanley Cup Sharks.'
The South shall rise again! - White Sox fan since 2000
by SharkFanInHawkCountry on Aug 26, 2010 12:01 AM PDT reply actions
I've been good-news depraved for weeks and left dried and haggard
MY BODY YEARNS FOR NOURISHMENT!
"Look at me. Yes, you heard me. Look at me. Don't stop."
-Dan Boyle in front of a mirror.
Certain of you have been so busy fighting in the other thread with trolls, WHERE IS THE STAAL ROSTERBATION!?
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
http://twitter.com/StapeNewsday/status/22039868214
OMIGOD SOMEONE GET THE MAN A PEN.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
so...
can we start the pleading and hoping for Marc Staal now? I need something to wish for.
offer sheet his ass DW
Dude, lemme getchur keys.
A friendly reminder to fellow Sharks fans:
With the exception of the aged Rob Blake, the current defense is identical to the one that found itself playing in the conference championship series last season. Obviously, the fashion in which we lost that series might indicate that we need to upgrade the D at some point, but, with the core of the team in place, a playoff-experienced Demers for a full season and the expectation that Seto should have a better year than last, I’d say the Sharks are certainly still the team to beat in the division, and maybe even the conference. Unless you think the loss of Rob Blake is a bigger deal than I do.
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 26, 2010 6:59 AM PDT reply actions
I do think Rob Blake was more valuable than most think, but I agree with the sentiment. Vlasic will be better, Demers will be better, Huskins is WAAAY better than people give him credit for and could handle a little more responsibility. Our offense should be even better with Couture and McGinn getting consistent 3rd line time, though you never know if an injury will hit a Thornton or Marleau. No other team in the west did anything great (except maybe now LA) to close the gap, and Chicago certainly will deal with depth issues all year. I am still very excited for this year.
by ruben398 on Aug 26, 2010 8:34 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Im excited for the season as well and still think we are going to be the team to beat in the west but with Nabby and Blake leaving it just feels like our D could use a little help. Ive yet to convince myself that Niity will do well so ive been really hoping DW brings home a good Dman. Marc Staal anyone?
True True
How I didn’t include them, I don’t know.
Top notch goalie (I still think he is the most talented goalie in the game right now), outstanding top end scoring, offense from the back-end. Raffi Torres could be a very good signing.
That said, is Christian Ehrhoff now one of their top pairing defenseman, with Dan Hamius? Right now, who has a better defensive core, San Jose or Vancouver? I would have to think that Boyle-Murray is better than Ehrhoff-Hamius, but maybe Ehrhoff has really turned the corner defensively? Vlasic-Demers (my preferred #2 pair) vs. Bieksa-Edler? Huskins-Wallin vs. Ballard-Alberts? Vancouver and San Jose seem to be taking the same shotgun approach to defenseman.
Vancouver’s defense is head and shoulders better than ours.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Lots of underrating of the Vancouver defense there. I think Ehrhoff has definitely improved, Hamhuis is a solid (not spectacular) No. 2 guy, Ballard is very much like Hamhuis (more like a strong No. 3), and Edler has turned into a really solid young all-around player.
I only wish we had that kind of depth.
by Timorous Me on Aug 26, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Dont forget about salo
He will be back in december from injury.
With the exception of future Hall of Famer, Top 4 Defender, Captain of the Sharks with the booming shot and who played awesome in the playoffs Rob Blake…
Yeah, it’s kind of a big deal. Our defense wasn’t that great to begin with last season…and we got bailed out a lot by Nabby, who is no longer with us. Our defense definately needs to be upgraded.
Sadly, as the cap stands right now, we could have resigned Nabby…
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
During the regular season—and in the playoffs against Colorado—the strength of our offense was able to kind of mask defensive deficiencies against mediocre teams. We could control the puck, keep much of the action in the opposing zone, and therefore not allow teams to have that many great chances against us.
Even without Blake and Nabby, I’d expect much of the same next season, with the GAA going up probably no more than 0.25 per game. But come the playoffs, against teams that have solid all-around games—the list should this year include Chicago, Detroit, Vancouver, L.A., and maybe Nashville, St. Louis, and Phoenix in the West alone—our whole team is going to get worn down and exposed unless we can improve the defense still.
by Timorous Me on Aug 26, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
And I should add that the loss of Blake will likely impact our own goal-scoring, especially on the power play. Right now I wouldn’t be surprised at all to end up in the 5th or 6th spot in the conference.
by Timorous Me on Aug 26, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Blake scored 7 goals and added 23 assists last year. Solid but not jaw-dropping stats. Demers comes close to matching that or I’m not a Sharks fan.
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 26, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Ignoring your scoffing sarcasm...
…let’s not kid ourselves. Rob Blake was a fine defenseman for us, but he was many years removed from his hall of fame form by the time the Sharks signed him, and I’m sure that, defensively at least, Wallin will fill the roll Blake previously championed — wily and seasoned, but otherwise old and slowing defenseman. Let’s not forget that perhaps the biggest reason we lost to Chicago was our lack of team speed, a department in which Blake did anything but excel. I hate that I’ve been put in a position where I have to deride a once-great player to defend my perspective, but I do believe that losing him, contrary to what a few of you seem to fear, will not be our undoing.
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 26, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not just the losing of Blake that hurts...
I mean, I think you’re underselling Blake, but really, add losing him to losing Nabokov (who’s a Top 5 goaltender and was really quite awesome last season)…and remember that our defense was not particularly awesome last season (let up some of the most shots in the league last season…Nabby just happened to save most of them), well, it’s cause for concern. Even the same defense as last year, and replacing Nabby with Niitty is a pretty big downgrade in our overall ability to keep the puck out of the net.
The reason given for letting Nabby go is that the trend of teams is to go cheaper in net, and then use that extra cap space on compiling an awesome blueline in front of your cheaper goalie. And the Sharks have yet to take care of the second part of that…and I’d argue they got marginally worse on teh blueline this offseason, if anything (the loss of Blake is still a loss).
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Don’t forget that Blake was one of the most effective at clearing the crease during the Blackhawks series in the playoffs. That’s a big part of defense, and without someone doing that work it doesn’t matter whether we have Niitty or Nabby in goal – if you can’t see the game, it’s hard to defend the net
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
I loved Blake in the playoffs, he’s definitely a bigger hole to fill than many people want to believe. Remember, I’m still distraught about losing Mitchell.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Yeah. His experience definitely came in handy there, and Mitchell’s background would have helped, so I do understand being upset.
But maybe someone better will come along coughcoughstaalcoughcough :)
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Staal isn’t coming here. He’s not going anywhere…
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree to a degree.
I think it’s possible that our defense is marginally worse, but, at the same time, we’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg regarding Demers’ potential, and we’re doubting Nitty without seeing him play a single game in teal. The Sharks are as good as anyone, better than most, going into the season with our current roster — EASILY a top 8 team, and, in all likelihood, a top 3. If we’re leaking goals come the trade deadline, then I’m sure you have as much confidence in DW as I do to make a strong move to plug a hole or two. There are, after all, a few defensemen that will likely be available via trade this season… Kaberle? Regehr?
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 26, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not that I doubt Niitty – I’m actually thinking he could be quite good, but he’s not going to be a savior or anything. We still need a good D, and I do hope Demers steps up as well, but it would be nice to have a slightly stronger D than we did last year.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
If we’re leaking goals come the trade deadline, then I’m sure you have as much confidence in DW as I do to make a strong move to plug a hole or two.
His track record at the trade deadline isn’t the best. Now, I’m not saying I don’t believe in DW, but taking it for granted that he’s going to pull off a miraculous move at the deadline to solve all our woes seems a tad optimistic.
we’re doubting Nitty without seeing him play a single game in teal.
Niitty, I think, can be a good goalie. But years and years in the league has proven that he’s no Nabby. It’s a downgrade in goal, no matter what. Same offense + slightly worse defense + worse goaltending does not = a better team.
Of course we’ll still make the playoffs…but I want to win a Stanley Cup, and I highly doubt this team’s ability, as currently constructed, to do so.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Thornton, Heatley, Rivet, Campbell...
He’s definitely made some good to great trades over the years. In fact, when it comes to making trades, he might be the best in the game right now. And, while you’re right that we might be marginally weaker than we were last year, I don’t see our primary competition from last year (Detroit, Chicago, Phoenix (?)) getting any better this off-season either. Chicago, obviously, got worse. Detroit was basically idle, unless anyone thinks Modano would’ve made all the difference when we ousted them last year :) Phoenix can’t hope to repeat, though they’ll still be feisty. Vancouver made a couple strong acquisitions, but, then again, how many guys had career years on that team last season? Burrows, Samuellson, Raymond… Henrik Sedin. How much are you going to bet on any of those guys repeating? L.A. is marginally stronger. We’ll see whether Mitchell can last 82 games. We’ll see whether Mitchell is the same player post-concussion that he once was. We’ll see how long it takes for them to regret giving Mitchell 2 yrs, 3.5M/yr. I still say the Sharks take the West.
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 27, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
How did you not mention Boyle in your post title?? You mentioned Craig Rivet but not DAN FUCKEN BOYLE? CMON! (that “CMON!” was said in the voice of Gob from AD, just fyi)
Vancouvers offense probably won’t be quite as potent but the huge improvements they made on defense should more than make up for it.
The Kings wooped our asses pretty bad a couple times last year, with more experience for their young players and the addition of Willie Mitchell (assuming he stays healthy) they should be pretty scary.
Detroit was already fairly evenly matched with us last year (those games we’re so close, we hardly dominated them) and their team has stayed the same if not gotten better while we’ve gotten weaker, so they should be pretty scary for us as well.
Since you made an awesome Arrested Development reference, I forgive you for doubting me...
But didn’t we sign Boyle as a UFA? If not, I apologize for not naming him too :)
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 27, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Naw we traded for him. We traded Matt Carle, Ty Wishart and a 1st round pick for Dan Boyle and Brad Lukowich.
Well,
in that case, I deserve to burn my arm on a corn-baller…
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 27, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
The team will make the playoffs but our defense already wasn’t Cup caliber WITH Blake, and it most certainly is not now. And while Nabby was prone to inconsistency, he still was a very good, experienced goaltender. We don’t know what we’ll be getting from Nittymakki.
Offer Sheet Marc Staal and hope you can work out a trade.
I can’t imagine the Rangers not matching any offer sheet we would throw at them.
We’d need to trade for him, and we totally should imo. Our defense desperately needs some help. I don’t know if Clowe + picks + prospect(s) would be enough for Staal, but if it is then we should totally do it. I’d throw in Murray (although i really wouldn’t want to, even though we would need a spot on defense) but i don’t think they have enough cap space for Clowe AND Murray.
You gotta think that Clowe + Benn Ferriero + a 1st round pick would be a good enough deal for Staal right? Sigh, i’m desperate now.
To replace Clowe, we could maybe sign Lee Stempniak. As The Dudes from DoH said a while back, maybe we could convince Stempniak to come here on a cheap one year deal as a way to raise his market price for next year like Malhotra did. He’d be playing with either Joe Thornton or Joe Pavelski, you can’t go wrong with that. He’d likely put up career high numbers playing for the Sharks, and he’d have a great shot at the cup (assuming we successfully traded for Staal). Whether we resign him or not next year, his market price will be a LOT higher than it is this year (assuming he played hard) so it’s a pretty good deal for him.
If you were New York, would you really take that deal?
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
I don’t think rationally when it comes to Marc Staal right now, so that’s not really a fair question.
Honestly though Clowe, Ferriero, plus a 1st rounder is a good deal i think; i probably would take it. Clowe’s a solid power forward that can go on streaks and rack up points, and Ferriero is about a point per game player in the AHL. Plus Staal obviously doesn’t want to stay with the rangers, that should help in a potential trade i would think.
He doesn’t want to stay with the Rangers at the rate that Sather is offering. We don’t know if he actually wants to play in NY or not.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Slats claims he will match any offer, but idk that in reality he can without it screwing up his cap even further then he already has.
One option (I know teams don’t really do it, unless they have Islanders like cap space) is to poison pill the Rangers by offering Staal such a huge offer that they are forced to let him sign and just take the picks in return. I’m normally not in favor of the Sharks giving away draft picks in trades and such, but for Staal it’s worth it.
The Rangers can Waive Wade Redden and instantly gain 6.5 million cap space.
The only offer that Sather wouldn’t match would be a ridiculous offer that wouldseriously hurt his teams financial future, and it would hurt us even more than it would hurt them. So I just can’t see an offer sheet working out.
I don't think we can make the "poison pill" offer.
Anything north of $6M, and we’d need a 1st, 2nd AND 3rd Rounder as compensation. We don’t have the 2nd anymore if memory serves. I thought it went to Carolina in the Wallin deal. Am I mixing up the 2010 and 2011 draft picks?
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Isn’t $6m a bit much? What was the salary range people were thinking?
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Oh no i wouldn’t pay 6 million. If it was for the next 10 years i might think about it but there’s no way DW would do that.
Any offersheet that we could/would make, the Rangers could/would match.
Agreed. But OS and trade might work, however the Offer Sheet might just create an opportunity for the Rangers – forcing Staal’s hand to play with them.
Twitter tells me talks are at a stand-still.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Yeah an offersheet isn’t even an option imo.
But maybe DW can take advantage of the situation with an epic trade.
If the Rangers are able to sign him before another team offersheets… There’s risk in that, though I guess offer sheets are pretty rare, so maybe that’s not much of a concern.
“@Ryeking737: Rangers may be looking to move Marc Staal…..all contract talks have been ceased”
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Twitter is like a snake charmer.
I think there’s a good chance he’s traded, but the question is, to whom? The Kings are out now, as are the Canucks… So us and the Caps being the main teams looking for a good d-man?
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
I want Staal really bad
But Clowe, Ferriero and a 1st effectively blows up our roster, as you are taking scoring pop from our 2nd AND 3rd lines (I make that on the assumption that Ferriero lines up on Couture’s wing with McGinn).
Offensive depth is pretty much all we have going for us right now as, again, assuming Ferriero is ready for the NHL, we have 3 scoring lines.
Trading Clowe and Ferriero, and our lines, I would assume, go:
Heatley Thornton Setoguchi
Marleau Pavelski McGinn
X Couture X
Mayers Nichol X
We’d need to retool that third line and find guys who can be effective linemates for Couture, who I think showed he’s ready to be a playmaker. Stepniak is nice, but we still need someone else. Are we really into Wellwood or Nolan territory here?
Food for thought anyway. A trade for Staal with the package your propose is probably about what he’d cost. I doubt NY is interested, and I think I’d rather have the depth. (Of course, we have to actually USE the depth and NOT play HTML 20 minutes a night and have them be minuses, but that’s a whole ’nother kettle of fish…)
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
This is how i could see our team ending up if we made that deal. We’d still have 1 mill cap space left so we could pay Stempniak or Staal a little more if necessary, although it shouldn’t be really.
SAN JOSE SHARKS
FORWARDS
Dany Heatley ($7.500m) / Joe Thornton ($7.200m) / Devin Setoguchi ($1.800m)
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Lee Stempniak ($2.000m)
Jamie McGinn ($0.997m) / Logan Couture ($1.242m) / Owen Nolan ($1.000m)
Torrey Mitchell ($1.367m) / Scott Nichol ($0.760m) / Jamal Mayers ($0.600m)
Cameron MacIntyre ($0.600m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($4.000m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Douglas Murray ($2.500m)
Niclas Wallin ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($0.543m)
Jay Leach ($0.500m)
GOALTENDERS
Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m) / Thomas Greiss ($0.550m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 22; CAP:$59.4m; PAYROLL: $58.325m; CAP ROOM: $1.075m; BONUSES: $0.715m
by Khaaz on Aug 26, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Owen Nolan isn’t signing here…at least that’s what Pollack said in his latest WTC.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Yea thats kind of a bummer. That roster still looks nice though.
Churning and burning, they yearn for the cup.
Twitter! rmorse05
by sharks in oc on Aug 26, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
he did quantify it with a never say never clause.
by animadiversion on Aug 26, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
he did quantify it with a never say never clause.
this
but whatevs, you know i like Torrey Mitchell so i’d say he could take that spot on the 3rd line and then bring in Frazer Mclaren to play on the 4th line.
Shudder...
A bottom 6 with Mitchell as the 3rd line center and McLaren-Nichol-Mayers is going to scare no one. Our current defense could stop those lines.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Well in that situation i was talking about he’d be playing wing alongside Couture and Mcginn. No matter what your opinion of Mitchell, he’d do a fine job on Couture’s wing.
I dunno, I have literally zero faith in Mitchell to provide any offense. I think he’d still be a liability on Couture’s wing when someone like Ferriero could be called up and actually be useful.
Mitchell on the 4th line doesn’t irritate me, though.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 26, 2010 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
If having to go with Torrey Mitchell over Benn Ferriero means we get Marc Staal then does it really matter?
Can someone please explain the fascination with Ferriero? Haven’t seen the kid play or know much about him. His stats look ho-hum, seeing as most are from college (though good), and there’s one season of somewhat unimpressive AHL stats. If Mitchell can get his level of play back up after his injury, he’s got a lot of raw talent.
Please PLEASE correct me if I’m confused (:
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Ferriero’s actually got awesome stats. He scored 50 points in 58 games in the AHL. He’s close to a point per game player in the AHL, which is very solid.
I kinda get the feeling his game won’t translate quite as well to the NHL but with the stats he’s got he should still be a good trade chip to top off a deal.
What about 50 points in 58 games is unimpressive? 4 goals in the playoffs as well.
He looked great to start the year in SJ too.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Um, Benn Ferriero is awesome. A line of ferriero-couture-mcginn tore up the AHL (when they were there together), and I’d really like to see that chemistry in the NHL…see if it translates over.
And besides being able to skate fast, what is Mitchell’s raw talent? He can skate…and he can’t score…awesome. Let’s put him on a 3rd line to help with scoring depth! Sorry, I just really don’t get the Mitchell love in San Jose…
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 27, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Ferriero-Couture-Zalewski was last season’s line. They were the best in the AHL.
Also have to remember that Worcester was the youngest team in the AHL and they were making some noise.
That’s nothing to sneeze at. Roy Sommer know’s his stuff.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
I thought McGinn jumped in there with them when he was down…eh, either way, Ferriero was kind of a beast in AHL last year.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 27, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I think McGinn spent more time at the airport
Than actually playing in Worcester!
Either way, McGinn and Couture showed some chemistry in the few games they had with the big club. You toss in Ferriero, and that line looks a lot like Pavelski’s line: A two-way playmaker with a fast sniper and a big body that’ll work the corners.
Sign me up.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Yeah, that would be nice – but hypothetically, would you trade Ferriero on that line for Staal?
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
It's not just a question of Ferriero
It’s a question of Ferriero AND Clowe. We go from 3 scoring lines to 2.
At this point, I’m still inclined to say yes because it’s easier to win when the other team doesn’t score, but you still have to score as well, and we’d then be asking for Torrey Mitchell to have a career year as well as Jamie McGinn.
Not outside the realm of possibility, but certainly a stretch.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Well in my dream example there, we would’ve picked up Lee Stempniak to replace Clowe on the 2nd line. So our 3rd line would still be intact.
So the question is: Would you go with Torrey Mitchell over Benn Ferriero, and Lee Stempniak over Ryane Clowe if it meant we would get Marc Staal? (THE NEXT CHRIS PRONGER!)
I say hells yes.
I say yes
Just not hell yes.
Staal is a MAJOR upgrade on the blue-line, while Mitchell is a slight downgrade (less scoring but more PK) and Stempniak is at best a sideways change.
I’d do it, I wouldn’t be over the moon about it.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
We really don’t know how Ferriero’s game will translate to the NHL. I don’t think you can say Mitchell is a downgrade in scoring necessarily, it’s not like Mitchell wouldn’t put up the same numbers (or better) in the AHL playing with Couture.
Even as you see it, we’d be making a slight downgrade on our 3rd line and it would get us freakin Marc Staal. How are you not over the moon about that!? lol
Personally i think Mitchell over Ferriero wouldn’t be a downgrade at all, but Clowe over Stempniak could be a real downgrade. It’s hard to say since Stempniak didn’t do very well with the Leafs, but then played with the Coyotes and had an offensive explosion. You gotta think that on the Sharks he would look just as good if not better though, especially if we signed him to a 1 year Manny Malhotra ‘show the whole league what you can do’ type contract.
I really do believe in Ryane Clowe
That’s why I’m not over the moon. Maybe just in geosynchronous orbit for Marc Staal.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
The real question is, would Sather do that deal? I think Sather wants a talented young centerman to play with Gaborik, so I bet Sather is telling DW that he’s not trading Marc Staal unless Couture is involved.
Probably not
Unless we convince him that signing Clowe to a 6 year $6M/per deal turns him into Gaborik’s center…
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Yeah, I like Couture too much to trade him, even for a Staal. I think some argument could be made for Clowe. I am personally not that excited about Clowe and wouldn’t mind trading him for someone like Staal.
Everyone freaks out about Vancouver’s D and says, “We can’t win if we can’t score!” but when it comes to making a slight scoring reduction on our third line (if you don’t believe in Mitchell much) to make our D much better, they’re all against it. Very much an ownership bias if you ask me (:
The latest is Staal’s agent saying he doesn’t want an offer sheet, they want to work things out with the Rangers, etc. So this is all dependent on whether Staal wants to leave the Rangers or not – if he wants to stay, he’ll definitely stay. But if he’s not into it anymore, then there might be an opportunity.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Mitchell will actually be able to attend training camp this season, and he’ll actually be able to start the season healthy with the rest of the team. I don’t think it’s fair at all to judge him off this past season where he had just come back from a serious injury during the middle of the season after such a long layoff.
Mitchell hardly played in the AHL but the few games he did play he put up just as solid of number as Ferriero did, and he didn’t have Couture setting him up. Really, Mitchell and Ferriero are very similar players, but I guarantee Ferriero isn’t nearly as good as Mitchell is defensively.
I like Mitchell because he’s a great two way player who’s extremely fast and can play on the PK. I personally also believe he’s still got some offensive potential but with that aside he’s still a good player to have.
You’re all for McGinn being on the third line, but with more games played Mcginn only put up 2 more points than Mitchell, and McGinn is tied for the lowest +/- on the team, while Mitchell is tied for the the 7th highest +/- on the team.
To be fair, McGinn is still pretty young. That said, I love Mitchell as well. It’ll be interesting to see him go through training camp and be able to relax a little before being thrown into the NHL, and I think you could see some really great stuff from him. Sometime to work on being offensive with the coaches might help with that side of things too, to Khaaz’s point.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Yeah i like McGinn, i don’t think it’s fair to judge either of them at this point since they’ve both only played a couple seasons in the NHL.
True. w/ Mitchell, I think he’s been so torn up moving from place to place it’s impossible to get a good read, and then with injury it’s even harder. Injury can be hard to come back from and convince yourself you’re really 100%, especially the first big injury.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
He scored 30 goals for me in franchise mode for me last year.
It was 2K10 on Wii, but it gives me an irrational faith in his offensive abilities ;)
Don't let the name deceive you, I'm not just a Sharks fan but a Lakers, 49ers, Angels, Giants (and to a lesser extent) Capitals, and Titans fan.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Aug 27, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair point. I’m just really concerned over our lack of scoring depth right now, as I see that as an equally large problem to the defense issue. Our issue against Chicago was mostly scoring. I’d do Clowe-Ferriero-1st for Staal in a heartbeat (which probably tells me the Rags would have nothing to do with it), but we’d need to sign more offense too.
DW and the organization seem really overly committed to seeing what the kids have this season, though…at least in the comments being circulated.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 27, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I think a lot of us have been concerned with scoring depth a lot more than we probably should be because we’re comparing ourselves to the super stacked Blackhawks team that swept us last season, but we’re not going to see a team like that again for a while i don’t think.
Plus it was TMacs decision to hardly play our 3rd line. I think he didn’t play them because he didn’t trust them enough defensively, which is another reason i love Mitchell; having him out there is almost like having an extra defenseman (maybe a Lite version of Vlasic) out there imo. Whether he’s scoring or not he’s playing good defensive hockey and if TMac can trust our 3rd line not to give up goals ina playoff game then he can throw them out there more often to relieve Thornton & co. of some minutes. (Thornton played 30 freakin minutes in one of the Blackhawk games)
Woah Woah Woah
Lets not start painting Mitchell to be something he’s not. He’s nowhere near as sound defensively as ANY of our current defensemen. That includes Jay fucking Leach. Much less Vlassic.
He’s a decent 2-way player than is fast, which helps him make up for poor decisions. He’s not a defensemen, and couldn’t handle that role in the NHL on any team.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
lol i didn’t mean he could play the actual role of a defenseman. He’s just really good with his stick and i’ve noticed him do a good job of breaking up plays. I didn’t mean to imply that he’s better than even Pavelski or Marleau.
Anytime you have a player like Pavs, Marleau, or even Mitchell out there that are back checking, covering their men, and breaking up plays in the defensive/neutral zone, it’s like having extra defensemen on the ice.
The Sharks coaching staff has done a good job of trying to get all of our players to play that kind of hockey but some are definitely much better than others.
So maybe a Pavs light on the defense… not Vlassic. :)
I’m a semantics asshole lately.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Assuming Mitchell has a good PK year
He belongs on the 4th line.
I’m assuming our PK pairings are then:
Nichol-Mitchell
Marleau-Pavelski
Mayers-McGinn
I suppose you could swap Mitchell and McGinn and give both pairings some size.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
well, he said it doesn't look like it.
a trade for staal would kind of be a game changer.
Shameless radio show plug. Also, here's my twitter.
"The last time I made a video in a hotel room…..very different than this." – Drew Remenda
Proud founder of the "Bring Back Semenov" Club
As I mentioned before, only Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara, and Marc Staal faced a higher quality of competition last season while giving up less goals against at even strength.
Well, this is technically true, but slightly misleading. For example, who is better between these two players?
Player A: .054 QUALCOMP, 1.86 GA/60
Player B: .093 QUALCOMP, 2.41 GA/60
Both played above average competion, but it looks like player A was matched up against a lot of 2nd liners and dominated, while player B took on the best of the best and did okay. Make sense when you consider Player A is Tom Poti and Player B is Robyn Regher. My sense is you want who has performed against the best, and thus I think I’d rather have a guy with Regher’s numbers.
Here are Mitchells #’s: .062 QUALCOMP, 2.14 GAON/60
Only counting Dmen with over 40 games played, Mitchell was 33rd in the league in QUALCOMP. He realistically is closer to a Tom Poti than Robyn Regher defense-wise. That is to say, he is a good player, but I think the statement above overrates him a bit. Though, him and Vlasic (.023 QUALCOMP, 1.66 GAON/60!, 2nd best among all Dmen who faced above average competition) would have made an absolute dynamite pairing.
If memory serves
Regher had a very middling season by his standards. He seems to have lost a step. Maybe the numbers aren’t quite as misleading as they seem?
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Yeah i don’t think they are misleading, i heard Regehr was playing really poorly at times which is why i’m not screaming to trade for Regehr; although it would still be a big upgrade i’m sure.
2.41 GAON/60 is pretty good for that kind of competition
By these measures, he was almost as good as Brent Seabrook was last year, here are their numbers
Seabrook: .102 QUALCOMP, 2.45 GAON/60
Regher: .093 QUALCOMP, 2.41 GA/60
I was going to say it probably helped Seabrook playing with the reigning Norris Champ while Regher played with Ian White, but their QUALTEAM are virtually identical.
Either way, at a $4mil cap hit, Regher would be a godsend for this team.
I'd love to see Regher in teal
Even if he has lost a step. He’s still an upgrade over Douglas Murray, and is probably on par with what we got out of Blake.
I’m a bit surprised by Seabrook’s GAON. Seems higher than I’d expect. Probably has a lot to do with that .102 QCOMP as well as the ridiculous minutes he and Keith play, as well as Chicago’s inconsistent goaltending.
Even though the numbers say they are comparable players, I can’t help but think there’s more value in Seabrook than Regher. I’m guessing some other statistic might show the gap.
Suffice to say, either of these guys are an upgrade, and I would love them in Teal, but I have no idea what it’d take to get either of them.
Here’s to hoping the Hjammer offersheet makes keeping Seabrook troublesome for Chicago!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Not with 4+ in bonus penalty coming off the books
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Seabrook is still a year away before RFA and any chance of getting him.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
Yeah, they will resign Seabrook, but man are they going to go into every year having to scrape the bottom of the barrel for their depth.
But that core is no doubt the envy of the league…
The Sharks have a damn enviable core as well.
Who wouldn’t want to go into any season with Thornton, Marleau, Heatley, Pavelski, Vlasic and Boyle?
by Ike Wa the L Hater on Aug 27, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I know that it is unfair to judge him based on it, but I can’t help but remember how many times the Sharks undressed Regehr in that 9-1 game.
American Heroes: Joe Pavelski, Buster Posey, David Backes
Proud member of the "Doug Wilson for Governor" Club
Fools and Sages
Well the meltdown certainly comes to mind
But in reading the Flames blog over the course of the year, that was just the most glaring example of what was a more chronic problem.
Regher just wasn’t the same defenseman that backstopped their finals appearance. He was still darned good for sure, but he just wasn’t the same. And it’s unfair to ask any 29 year old to do what he did when he was 23, but still.
It was also a team-wide problem. Jay Bouwmeester regressed offensively, as did Regher, and Calgary was already hurting up front. Phaneuf got shipped out for having a similar slide, and suddenly, everyone on that roster starts to look bad.
Overall, it’s hard to judge, but I can’t say the numbers were supprising.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
29? That’s the prime of his career. That’s just a bad game in a bad season on a bad team run badly. Calgary, since their finals run, always seems to be less than the sum of their parts.
I’d expect Regher to play much better if he were to change teams.
He no doubt has many good years left
But his mobility seems to have taken a dive. Fortunately for him, defenseman can evolve in other ways and tend to have long careers.
Didn’t totally mean to make him sound washed up. He was probably still one of the best players on a mediocre team and his numbers reflected that.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
FWIW
This is what I use to evaluate best defensive defensemen.
The data’s all on Behind the Net to do an end of year chart.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 26, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I call BS
on any chart that puts Error as the 26th best defensive defensemen in the NHL. :)
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
haha
Yeah don’t let personal bias stand in your way… plus, it’s only based on one season of play.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 26, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
And playing behind the Sedin’s who were phenomenal offensively
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
Ehrhoff wasn’t really on the ice with the Sedins, he was usually matched up with Kesler’s line. It was Salo-Edler out with the Sedins (I’m trying to find proof of this but dobber hockey doesn’t seem to do forward-defensemen shift charts).
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 26, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m going to continue thinking that DW has some magic up his sleeve. I just don’t think he could be satisfied with out current D, and he would have made a stronger push for someone if he didn’t already have some sort of idea.
DW has made some great moves in the past, lets home he’s got another in him.
Churning and burning, they yearn for the cup.
Twitter! rmorse05
I doubt he’s got anything up his sleeve now. I guess the positive of it is that he and the coaching staff can watch these guys playing together at the start of the season, assess just how good Demers and Wallin look like they can be this year for the team, and then figure out a move (and just how desperately we need to make one!).
And then it’ll be a matter of watching for teams to struggle—especially those surprisingly struggling teams—and try to capitalize on their frustrations. Off the top of my head, Calgary is the first team that comes to mind, especially with a guy like Regehr. Or, even better, guys who will be UFAs after the season—Ian White and my man Mark Giordano.
by Timorous Me on Aug 26, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Clowe for a defenseman has been my preference for quite sometime.
Pittsburgh has been my team of preference. Not only due to their solid blue line, but the fact that the pens need help on the wings makes a deal even more sensible.
Orpick would be awesome. Lives in SF born in Redding. Nor Cal kid.
I can dream
I would like to keep Clowe. I would like to keep Murray. Of the two, trading Clowe makes the ‘most sense’ but I’m not sure it’s the best move in the long run. JMoney and I were discussing this yesterday and we both agree that last year was an off year for Clowe, (who still have, like what, 60 pts?), and that a guy entering the prime years of his playing career, a guy poised to break out, is just silly.
Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but I rather not see either man go at this time.
resident cartoonist @CouchTarts Lightning is seven times as hot as the surface of the sun.
That’s still not as hot as Douglas Murray. -mymclife
"No, That's Not General Malaise, It's NHL Playoff Fever." Real Fake Sports
I feel the same way, but we seriously need to improve our blueline and we don’t have anyone else who’s as valuable a trade chip as Clowe is that we can afford to lose. Logan Couture might be able to give us a real good return in a trade but I don’t think it would be smart to trade him atm.
If Clowe can help us get a guy like Marc Staal (which is really just a pipe dream I suppose) then it would be totally worth it.
I will agree that if we get a good enough player back in exchange, I’ll probably be less heartbroken over it. Still love to see him stay in teal though.
resident cartoonist @CouchTarts Lightning is seven times as hot as the surface of the sun.
That’s still not as hot as Douglas Murray. -mymclife
"No, That's Not General Malaise, It's NHL Playoff Fever." Real Fake Sports
The way you improve is to deal from strength to improve weakness. Trading Clowe for a top-3 defenseman just leaves a hole in the top 6, specifically a power-forward. Anyone remember how Morrow and Getzlaf and Byfuglien and Holmstrom caused us fits? That’s what Clowe brings to our team. If we trade him, who’s going to fill that role?
If Clowe consistently brought that to our team, I don’t think people would be suggesting we trade him. His inconsistency in filling that roll is really frustrating.
Churning and burning, they yearn for the cup.
Twitter! rmorse05
by sharks in oc on Aug 27, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s the key. We all want Clowe to play like Holmstrom or Buff…but he never does. He plays like Thornton. And we already have the original Thornton! Clowe is expendible, IMO.
Z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tweet Tweet.
by ZeroIndulgence on Aug 27, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Point taken, and I agree, to a certain extent. I hate seeing Clowe on the half-boards looking to make a play.
But I still don’t see who will provide the screens and deflections and rebounds if we ship him out. Couture has some world-class deflection skills, but I don’t think he’s big enough to take the abuse night-in and out.
Clowe is best digging pucks out and skating with them
If he’s on the half boards, he’s not moving his skates. THAT is his biggest problem.
We can want him to be the next Holmstrom all we want, but that’s not his strength. Clowe is the man that gets the low cycle working.
It’s just as effective as the Byfugstrom strategy. It also draws a lot of penalties. And it plays to the strengths of his linemates.
Ryane Clowe needs to keep skating. If he does, he’ll be the player we want.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Which brings us back to the inconsistency gripe….
Churning and burning, they yearn for the cup.
Twitter! rmorse05
by sharks in oc on Aug 27, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, there is that...
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
It’s the nature of the role, though, that usually they’re not going to get a point per game. I agree that Clowe would be much more valuable if he were more consistent, but I’m willing to accept a pretty-good Clowe for 50-60 streaky points, with maybe a career year for 70 in there somewhere.
What you need them for is the close, high-stakes games where they’ll get a deflection or rebound or screened goal, when Setoguchi and Marleau are getting pushed to the perimeter. Then they’re invaluable. If Chicago didn’t have Byfuglien’s output, we might have won all those close games.
Watch Detroit closely, and how they use Cleary and Homer and now Bertuzzi.
It also helps if those guys actually GET on the ice
As opposed to sitting on the bench watching the top line play 20 minutes and not managing to be on the + side of +/- but that’s a whole different rant…
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
I like McLellan, a lot, but all of the criticisms against Clowe just makes it clear that either the coaches aren’t using him properly, or Clowe is trying to play outside his role. In either case, it comes back down to McLellan et al.
Agreed
I get that HTML are the superstars and need time on the ice, but the “next generation” of this team (Pavelski, Seto, Clowe, Couture, McGinn, Mitchell, Ferriero) are all reasonably young players.
I don’t like the example that’s set for these players: Playing time is assigned according to your contract, not your effort or productivity.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
It’s not the coaches, they always talk about how they’d like to see Clowe play the ‘holmstrom’ role. DW has even said it in interviews.
Dino Ciccarelli and Ray Ferraro were not exactly big bodies
The fanbase and the higher ups are pushing Clowe too much in that role for what really is a team problem: a lack of commitment to get pucks and people to the net.
Chicago had 4 men in front of their net. And when they did, there was no movement from our forwards. We had a very static offense against the Hawks, waiting for Joe to thread some miracle pass from behind the net to Patty or Heater who were standing around for a one timer.
If Chicago, or any other team, are going to clog their crease like that, you have to generate some movement on offense by skating. Heatley’s injury and Marleau’s seeming general malaise during the post-season really nullified their mobility. And considering they played the lion’s share of minutes, if you have that kind of stagnation on offense, it’s no surprise we had such low scoring.
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Seto always seemed to be the guy we could move. We have a ton of forwards, not so many power forwards.
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
I don’t know if we can trust a guy that into Ed Hardy to not be a jerk and get super good after we trade him to another team. ;)
resident cartoonist @CouchTarts Lightning is seven times as hot as the surface of the sun.
That’s still not as hot as Douglas Murray. -mymclife
"No, That's Not General Malaise, It's NHL Playoff Fever." Real Fake Sports
One could/would argue he already IS super good … :P
by animadiversion on Aug 27, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
one could
and while I agree that he is good, I think he could be much better. And I feel like if we trade him that is exactly what he’ll go and become.
resident cartoonist @CouchTarts Lightning is seven times as hot as the surface of the sun.
That’s still not as hot as Douglas Murray. -mymclife
"No, That's Not General Malaise, It's NHL Playoff Fever." Real Fake Sports
Seto’s pretty good, not super good. He’s like another Milan Michalek: tons of skill, just no consistency. Milan was playing pretty good hockey for Ottawa before his injury last year.
Seto might turn into a top-line player on another team just by virtue of getting more ice-time. But I’d prefer that he improve here and turn our top-6 into something unstoppable.
Seto's issues are similar to Clowe
Consistency stemming from skating.
When that line was on, their cycle was nigh unstoppable because all three guys were constantly on the move, forcing the D to adjust and opening up shooting and passing lanes.
When Seto’s not engaged, he tends to float a little, and isn’t making things happen.
Sound like a certain “power forward” on our team?
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
bwahahaha. Just to spite us. SO really he’s building his whole career on the threat of being good.
please to be exiting my eyebrow parade, son. You appear to be raining on it. - CTGray
you have to admit, that would be five kinds of amazing if he was.
resident cartoonist @CouchTarts Lightning is seven times as hot as the surface of the sun.
That’s still not as hot as Douglas Murray. -mymclife
"No, That's Not General Malaise, It's NHL Playoff Fever." Real Fake Sports
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