Will Red Wings Head Coach Mike Babcock Break Up Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk?
Throughout the course of this young series, Detroit has had difficulty generating sustained pressure up and down their lineup. And for the most part, when that pressure has come, it's been from the top line of Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Tomas Holmstrom.
As Jamie Baker said during our Fear The Fin Series Preview Podcast, the Sharks would likely be content with containing Detroit's top line at the expense of limited production from Thornton-Marleau-Setoguchi. The reason? San Jose's forward depth, which been an immense strength for the team with the rise of excellent play from Joe Pavelski, Torrey Mitchell, and Kyle Wellwood, matches up well against the rest of the Red Wings forwards on a pound for pound productivity basis.
"Let's say the Thornton, Marleau, and Setoguchi line shuts down Detroit's top line. Is that an advantage to San Jose or not?," Baker asked. "I say it is. I think San Jose's second and third lines have more depth scoring-wise than Detroit's."
With players such as Joe Pavelski, Benn Ferriero, Ian White, and Niclas Wallin accounting for all of San Jose's goals, the top line hasn't had to be the dominant force on the scoresheet that many other teams would need to succeed. And for the most part, the fact that Thornton et al have managed to keep Datsyuk from killing them on the scoreboard (you can only hope to contain the brilliant forward) has been a positive for the Sharks.
The Red Wings have had difficulty generating much of anything outside of their top line. Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg have accounted for three of Detroit's five total points (1 G, 2 A), with the other two points coming from a top line player (Holmstrom, A) and a perennial Norris Trophy candidate (Lidstrom, G), speculation has ensued as to what must be done to re-ignite an offense that has stagnated.
"While it's not like the Eurotwins are tearing the Sharks to pieces, their line has been the only one that has enjoyed any sustained offensive pressure in the Sharks' zone. However, when they're not on the ice, the Sharks have set up camp so much in the Wings' zone they're toasting S'mores," Winging It In Motown writer Amerindian states. "Putting Zetterberg on the 'second' line gives the Wings another line that should generate some quality scoring chances, and since the next 2 games are in Detroit, Mike Babcock can match up Datsyuk against Thornton (who has been pretty quiet in this series) and Zetterberg against Pavelski's line."
With Mike Babcock such an avid line matcher, splitting up Datsyuk and Zetterberg makes sense at home. It gives him an opportunity to pick and choose his matchups against a Sharks team that has been very committed to their defensive end. Dan Boyle, who had a self-diagnosed poor series against Los Angeles, has been very effective against Datsyuk in the defensive zone. Boyle has been ferocious along the boards this series, something that the blueline as a whole has emulated.
Attacking San Jose's blueline is a place where Detroit's potential lineup can benefit however -- although Boyle-Murray and Vlasic-Demers can handle assignments against a more balanced Detroit lineup, McLellan will likely want to avoid situations where White-Wallin is out against either Datsyuk or Zetterberg for numerous shifts at a time. Although White has had an excellent postseason thus far, and Wallin has improved dramatically from his play during the first round, they are the weakest defensive pairing for San Jose and can be exploited by the two superstars. Managing their even strength ice time will be a key for San Jose during game three in order to avoid these types of situations.
In terms of counteracting a potential change to the Detroit lineup amongst the forward group, Sharks Head Coach Todd McLellan doesn't have much to do when formulating gameplans. Besides being a Head Coach that doesn't delve too deeply into the chess matches that occur this time of year, McLellan has already implemented an offensive scheme that responds to any change his former coaching partner will throw at him.
By rolling three forward lines like he has done all postseason, McLellan consistently puts out a forward group that is able to keep their heads above water. All three lines can generate offense and play sound defensive hockey, something that makes taking a microscope to each shift more of a burden than a necessity.
Furthermore, it's been a blessing for the Head Coach that his top offensive player Joe Thornton has been a huge factor defensively, something that Thornton took upon himself when he was awarded the Captaincy at the beginning of this season.
With the Sharks strong down the middle, and rich in two-way forwards who play in all three zones (Thornton, Couture, Pavelski), San Jose is proving to be a formidable opponent for teams trying to gain a matchup edge.
Make no mistake, Detroit isn't on the run just yet. But as they face two must-win games on Wednesday and Friday, getting their vaunted offensive machine back on track is the first step towards getting back into this series.
Splitting up Datsyuk and Zetterberg might be one of the few options Babcock has left.
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How Ironic. I was just posing the same question in the snowjob thread :-)
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Bringing it over here (where it belongs):
I’d be very surprised if the lines for Detroit do not change Wednesday. Currently, we’re looking at two top lines that effectively neutralize each other, and the 2-3-(4) are pretty much handling the scoring on the Shark’s side.
From our standpoint, I’m loving these lines, and when you take a look at how we springboarded off that one PP in the 2nd and kept it deep in their zone for 3-5 shifts; wow, you knew that the dam was going to break at some point.
Not sure as to what Babcock’s answer will be, but he’s taking all of today to figure that one out, apparently. And while I’m sure TMC is trying to get into Babcock’s head now and think through contingencies, I’m anything but settled on how we are going to handle a Datyuk/Zetterberg split-up, should one occur.
Of course, that has consequences for the Redwings as well.
Best way to say it: "Cautiously Optimistic," going into Game C.
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Effectiveness probably depends on how well Franzen can get skating
If you split them, you figure Hudler or Bertuzzi is on one line and Holmstrom’s on the other. If Franzen is still not 100% and on one of the top two lines, you’re looking at either guy having to carry that line defensively and as far as speed goes.
Truth.
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If I were Babcock, I'd split them
Datsyuk can excel with just about anyone and he makes others around him better while Zetterberg is already good on his own, In addition, SJ has been shutting that line down pretty well, so Detroit should split ’em and make 2 solid lines to make it harder for TMac to match up with.
"You can't stop him, you can only hope to contain Kent Huskins!" - Randy Hahn 2/13/11
IMO, he will...
…but I’m not 100% convinced it will have the desired effect. Which is probably why it will happen at JLA. Gives him flexibility.
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Yeah I think it's an improvement
But not sold it will help enough
"You can't stop him, you can only hope to contain Kent Huskins!" - Randy Hahn 2/13/11
Remember when our third D-pairing was Ehrhoff and Murray?
How awesome would it be to have those 2 now as your 5th and 6th best defensemen?
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it wasn't awesome
at that time in there development. but both have turned into fine nhl defensemen.
that's my point
Imagine if we had them NOW as our third/worst pairing.
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by PNK on May 2, 2011 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions
On this team?
They’d be no less than 2nd pairing…
and even then i feel it would be vlasic-ehrhoff.
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
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nevermind
my point was, imagine if you had a team and your worst defensemen were Christian Ehrhoff and Douglas Murray.
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by PNK on May 3, 2011 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Also,
I don’t think that there is much question that Game 3 is a must-win for Detroit, but if they do win that game does Game 4 also remain a must-win?
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There's no way to make this not sound wise assed, but...
…the only must win for them will be the one they NEED at The Tank. They can win all of them at home, but if they don’t win one here, it’s over.
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You're right
it did sound wise-assed. I know technically the only MUST WIN games are elimination games and that when you are the lower seed and only play 3 games at home then you MUST WIN a game on the road at some point, but the term “must-win” is often used more loosely than that and that is to what I was referring.
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by PNK on May 2, 2011 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Nononono..you miss what I meant...
…I think it’s going to be harder for them to win here, than for us to win one there. The extra line change works in our favor more here, than against us there.
IMO.
It sounded wise assed, but wasn’t meant to be.
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by Noctro on May 2, 2011 6:58 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I wasn’t trying to be curt either, after submitting it I realized it did and tried to reply to it with an addendum smiley face or something, but my computer was acting up and wouldn’t let me.
But I can see that I still misinterpreted your comment.
While I agree that it will be easier for us to win there than here, I’m not sure I agree with the why. As far as I can tell McLellan has never really played the match-up game and just rolled whatever lines he’s felt like. He seems to be of the mind of “I came here with a gameplan and I’m gonna just play my game and they can try to match US.”
I think our ability to roll 3 lines than can score and defend is our greatest advantage. While Detroit fans dispute that we’re the deeper team (something I haven’t seen proof of in our head-to-head match-ups), when we can play any of those lines and still get pressure and prevent them from scoring we don’t need to worry about match-ups.
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by PNK on May 2, 2011 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions
No worries.
And I see your point. Honestly, I really just don’t see a lot of weakness in our existing lines provided:
1. Clowe doesn’t go all nuts again, like in Series 1, Game B
2. Eager stops trying to get onto another team by joining them on their bench.
;-)
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meh
At least Eager got a mtching from Bertuzzi. That’s a trade I don’t mind much.
The misconduct is a different matter, b/c that could have gone another way, but as it was losing him for 10 minutes and not giving up a PP wasn’t so bad.
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by PNK on May 2, 2011 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions
any time i see our guy give burtuzzi shit, i'm happy..
dont even care on the situation…. fuck that guy
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
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This:
Furthermore, it’s been a blessing for the Head Coach that his top offensive player Joe Thornton has been a huge factor defensively, something that Thornton took upon himself when he was awarded the Captaincy at the beginning of this season.
is probably the main thing giving him pause. When you have the league leader in Take Aways as a top line forward, you really don’t want to leave the breathing room. All the pundits aside, Jumbo knows how to slam it in.
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agreed
was going to make this point earlier—the downside to Babcock’s potential plan is it gives the first line more room to do damage offensively as well as gives them an easier time shutting down the line matched against them. btw—can I just say… “divide and conquer”? hehe.
Although the possibility of a Pavelski-Marleau-Setoguchi line does make me grin a bit...
“The PMS line.”
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(yes, that was a joke).
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by Noctro on May 2, 2011 7:01 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The line that is out for blood.
UP THE PUCKS!
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by TheSoundOfHockey on May 2, 2011 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I literally just face-palmed.
I love Dany Heatley for his fantastic acting chops and his permanently dilated pupil.
by HeatersLeadingLady on May 2, 2011 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha :)
UP THE PUCKS!
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by TheSoundOfHockey on May 2, 2011 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions
What about the "Wallin-Thornton-Ferriero" line?
That doesn’t even make sense! WTF?
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by Noctro on May 3, 2011 12:08 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I really think all 3 of our defensive pairings (and our top 3 forward lines) are pretty damn solid defensively. There really isn’t that huge of a drop-off between Boyle/Murray (our first pairing) and Wallin/White (our 3rd pairing) defensively; especially compared to most other teams in the league.
Look at Nashville, there’s a huge drop-off between Weber/Suter and Kevin Klein/Cody Fransen. Or even look at Detroit, there’s a pretty fair difference between Lidstrom/Rafalski and Ericsson/Salei (i believe that’s their 3rd pairing).
I think splitting Zetterberg and Datsyuk would just thin out their offense. It might be a smarter move defensively, but if they were having trouble scoring before, then they’re really going to have trouble scoring after spreading out their offense like that.
I think Detroit just needs to continue to rely on Howard to hold off the Couture and Pavelski lines, and take advantage of the last change they’ll get at home on Wednesday in order to get some favorable matchups for their Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom line.
Maybe the drop off isn't as significant
But to be honest, the ceiling for DET’s and NSH’s top pairings are a step higher than SJ’s. Just saying.
I don’t think splitting them Zetterberg and Datsyuk would have that effect you think. I think Zetterberg is probably healthy enough to carry his own line at this point and it’s not like Detroit’s other top 6 forwards are chopped liver.
What I’m actually a little more concerned about is if there’s any scratches of their current lineup. Abdelkader has been taking stupid penalties and hasn’t really made the positive impact he’s capable of. Ryan Miller’s little bro Drew hasn’t been that effective either. Some Wings fans have been calling for Kris Draper and Mike Modano to sub in relief.
In particular, the possibility of Modano coming in worries me. I know he’s old and almost done, but he’s just a filthy Shark killer. I’m hoping Babcock has faith in Abdelkader and his errant high sticks..
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"BEAT DAT BEAT!!!"
the ceiling for DET’s and NSH’s top pairings are a step higher than SJ’s. Just saying.
Oh without a doubt. I didn’t mean to imply that we had better defense than Nashville, or even Detroit. I kinda see all 3 of our defensive pairings as solid 2nd pairings, while a lot of other teams have a clear 1st, 2nd, and 3rd defense pairing.
Which is why it doesn’t seem very smart to split up Datsyuk and Zetterberg imo, since it’s not like Zetterbergs gonna have an easier time scoring going up against Vlasic and Demers, especially without his euro twin to help him out.
So hopefully they do split Datsyuk and Zetterberg up. Then instead of having the Datsyuk/Zetterberg line scoring at least one goal per game and getting some good chances, they’ll have no lines scoring while Pavelski & Co. run wild on them.
But...
…I will say when our team is ON IT, they are far more cohesive than I’ve EVER seen them.
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Definitely.
Who woulda thunk that we could hold Detroit to just 1 goal a game, when we never gave up less than 3 goals a game in the Kings series.
If we keep playing playing like this i can’t see any team being able to beat us 4 times in 7 games.
Here's to hoping we feel that way still this time next week.
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I woulda thunk
That Nemo rocks are you kidding me ,whoa whoa whoa how does he do it????go sharks
Lets take a trip down memory lane:
http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2010/11/29/1841532/any-challengers-any-of-you-feeling-up-to-this
"Douglas Murray is a humongous human being." – Drew Remenda
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Miami Heat anyone?
Celebrated before they won a damn thing (I know LOL NBA). But I won’t comment on this article. The Sharks haven’t won this series yet.
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Sorry J.J., gotta post it...
San Jose? Do I have to write a paragraph about this team? Rob Blake retired this summer and took what little heart his organization had with him. There’s only so far diving can get you without defense. This team is headed in the wrong direction.
How things change.
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Honestly...
…back then, most of us might have agreed with that, though. It was raining HARD in November/December.
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We're DOOOOOOOOOOOMED
At least that’s how I felt towards December and January.
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That just proves
how foolish it is to make predictions of how the post-season will go at the beginning of the season.
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by PNK on May 2, 2011 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions
/sniff Yeah. Definitely.
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YEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! More of this!
"Bobby Orr was available, but we couldn’t fit him in under the cap." - Todd McLellan
"BEAT DAT BEAT!!!"
It's cool
I was just thinking about that article yesterday, actually.
Don’t worry guys. I haven’t forgotten about that.
by J.J. from Kansas on May 3, 2011 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions
From JJ, in the comments
I can handle the teasing if I’m wrong. If a team actually outplays the Wings, I might even post an article next offseason saying it’s all my fault and everybody can blame me.
I’m looking forward to this.
Fear The Fin = Man goes into cage... Cage goes into salsa... Shark's in the salsa... Our shark.
but we didn’t outplay the Wings, they just beat themselves, or the refs screwed them, or the linesmen blew offsides calls, which cost them the series. The Red Wings are still the better team. :)
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by PNK on May 2, 2011 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions
/knock on wood
I don’t mean to be calling this series over yet, I’m still REALLY nervous about game 3 at the Joe…
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by PNK on May 2, 2011 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Hell
Now I don’t even have to write it. You did it for me. Thanks!
;)
by J.J. from Kansas on May 3, 2011 6:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
We still have to win 2 more games before we can gloat.
by WhatsAMataHari on May 2, 2011 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Lets not get ahead of ourselves
I’ve seen worse failures this post season. Still, it’s a fun read top to bottom.
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SHARKS ARE MAKING MY NIPPLES HARD
DIAMOND CUTTERS, SUCK MY BABCOCK, AWOOOO GOT YOU WHERE I WANT YOU, AGAIN!
keep shit tough. do things hard.
Been thinking about this through the first two games
I originally thought that Babcock would split them up to try to counter the top 2 lines the Sharks have, and hope that Joe wouldn’t continue to shut Zetterberg down. Instead, he decided to try to top-load one line so that they could overload the Sharks’ more balanced lineup. Since HTML isn’t together as a superline anymore, it was a decent gamble to make. Unfortunately for him, it hasn’t worked very well.
I think that splitting Zetterberg and Datsyuk apart would hurt the Wings more than it would help. Thornton and Marleau have more or less been instructed (I think) to keep them in check and allow the lower lines to take care of most of the scoring. If you take Zetterberg off of the first line and move someone else up, the Thornton line may start to hurt you more – this would probably offset any reduced offense from the Couture or Pavelski lines. Either way, you’re playing with fire.
The Sharks’ defense pairings have been pretty consistent throughout, so I think the issue is more of a forward line vs. forward line question. What’s worse? A depth advantage or a top line advantage?
Please don't eat the unicorn.
Winning: n. "An ongoing cycle of competence and achievement in various endeavors. You cannot win; there is only the continuous action of winning."
Exactly.
I won’t be surprised if he breaks it up, but I’m thinking the more effective strategy would be a tazer collar to cut the penalty count.
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DON'T TAZE ME BRO!
I don’t even know that the collar would help. As long as Sharks keep scrappy forwards in the lineup like Nichol and Eager, who (although they can produce goals and scoring chances here and there) can excel at being a pain in the ass, and drawing a penalty or two from other teams, even the collar won’t stop it. Remember the Nichol-Doughty bout in the LA series that Sharks capitalized on in game 4 (i think)? A penalty exchange like that could lead to even more opportunities for the Sharks. Not that they were hurting in the first two games, judging from how they were playing…but better to be safe than sorry. It seems like the entire team is really getting under the ‘Wings skin. Here’s hoping we take one from them at the Joe, too!
KEEP THE FAITH. GO SHARKS!
in TROY, NY, bleeding teal and black since '91.
"You do that, you go to the box, you know. Two minutes, by yourself, you know and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free. "-Denis Lemieux
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4/19/11, a day that will live in infamy... for Kings fans.
Why is it so easy
to spell “Amerinadian” incorrectly?
Dude should just call himself “Canadamerican” and stop messing with my head.
Predictions? Half-witted at best…
~Dats and Zett will be linemates at times, yet sometimes not. “Confuse-a-Shark;” such is the genius of Babcock.
~Abds out, Draper in. No appreciable effect. Franzen will continue to do more gimpy harm than good. Proven Shark killer “Americhigander” Modano will be locked in the pressbox; such is the idiocy of Babcock.
Go Sharks.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Banworthy.

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