Rosterbation! Yes, I couldn't resist any longer....
by kiwi93 on Jun 6, 2011 12:07 PM PDT
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PrintSorry guys, I couldn't wait any longer after reading the last article written about our cap space!! For the sake of this article, I'm going to assume that the cap hit is 62M, and not the higher prediction of 63.5M..
Furthermore, I am going to try and be somewhat realistic (hopefully) and not make extreme possibilities come true based on Wilson's history (moving Heatley, etc).
Clearly our problem lies with the defense so that is what I'm going to try and fix.
As of now, we have four proven NHL ready defenders: Boyle, Murray, Vlasic, and Demers. For at least another year or two, Boyle will be able to play the number one role, but after that, I don't see anyone else in the organization that can fill that spot. Murray has made strides, but he is not a number two guy...I would prefer to see him playing 15-16 minutes a night on the third pairing. Despite a showing of offensive flare earlier in his career, Vlasic is a very one dimensional player. I'm not trying to take away from his game, but being one dimensional keeps him from being a top pairing defenseman. Demers has made strides this past year, but I have a hard time seeing him reach top pairing minutes in his career and playing him on the second pairing with Vlasic produces a very "soft" pairing (I know this can be argued, but Demers isn't big).
That means we are currently missing a number two defenseman, and a second pairing defenseman. For the sake of this article too, I want to assume that Braun isn't NHL ready (because according to the organization, Huskins was the better choice when Demers went out).
Players to look at from the UFA market:
Eric Brewer, Scott Hannan, Joni Pitkanen, Kevin Bieksa, Roman Hamrlik
Players that are available from the RFA market:
Shea Weber, Drew Doughty, Zach Bogosian, Luke Schenn, Keith Yandle, Josh Gorges, Ladislav Smid
Clearly the UFA market is very dry and that teams would be willing to overpay for the services of the decent players..And clearly the RFA market is stacked! But two players, one from each market stick out to me as a possibility for Wilson to go after: Eric Brewer and Zach Bogosian.
Brewer Is a 32 year old veteran with a more defensive style to his game (something the Sharks need). The only x-factor before July 1st is if Yzerman is able to sign him or not (rumor has it that Richards wants to return to Tampa). Brewer currently has a cap hit of 4.25M and has on average played 22-24 minutes a game. Think of Brewer as a Douglas Murray 2.0.
Bogosian is an interesting case too. He was drafted 3rd overall in 2008 and holds a lot of promise but just hasn't been able to live up to his hype quite yet. He has a bomb of a shot from the point and his large frame allows him to lay big hits. The only problem is that he has been a defensive liability. Either from an offer sheet or a trade, I think picking up Bogosian would be a good long term (and possibly short term) investment on our blue line. I don't see any of our current defenders being able to be the de facto number one defenseman after Boyle passes his prime (which he arguable already has)..
An offer sheet of 4.2M - 4.5M would compensate to our first and third round picks in the draft. I think Winnipeg would be willing to match almost all offer sheets just to show how they aren't going to be pushed around in the league (because they are a new team). That leaves the trade route. Would a package of Braun, Setoguchi, and a first be enough? I'm going to assume that it is....
FORWARDS
Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Dany Heatley ($7.500m)
Benn Ferriero ($0.850m) / Kyle Wellwood ($1.000m) / Jamie McGinn ($0.500m)
Pascal Dupuis ($1.000m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.500m) / Ben Eager ($0.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Eric Brewer ($4.250m)
Zach Bogosian ($3.375m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,558,334; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $441,666
Personally, I feel that this defense is much better than what we've put together for a lot of years. Trading Setoguchi also let's Pavelski play in the top six where I believe he is more valuable. Dupuis would be a fourth liner with an emphasis on the PK (essentially a replacement for Mitchell who I think has lost a spot on this team)
Please make your own Rosterbations too!!
This item was created by a member of this blog's community and is not necessarily endorsed by Fear The Fin.
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Agree about I White
Also I think Braun seto and a 1st is way to much for bogosian, his value is in his potential. I don’t really know too much about him but he hasn’t been dominate at all. If I were to give those guys up I’d want a more polished guy, we’re set up to win now. Also Eager better not play another game in a SJ jersey. Besides that though I like your ideas.
I like Eager. Yes, he had a giant streak of idiocy in the playoffs. But regular season and earlier series he played well with some offensive punch.
He was a first round pick for a reason, the problem is he just slumped into the enforcer mold that McGinn seems to have. I think a full season with the Sharks can develop him better. If he tempers his penalty taking aggression he’s a solid 3rd-4th line player, he’s big, yet also quite fast, and he has a really solid shot.
Basically, yea he fucked up, but to immediately throw out his potential because of it? I wouldn’t, especially at the lower cost you could get him at.
sorry to say but...
Eager easily costed us 2 games against Vancouver. His infamous game 2 which allowed the flood gates to open and allowed the Canucks to score even with Nemo standing on his head. Then, game 4 at the Tank when Vancouver scored 5 on 3 goal after 5 on 3 goal. To say his stupid penalties killed us is an understatement. He’s gotta go. There’s gotta be someone (in the organization or free agency) that can fill his role.
Uh, Eager didn't play in Game 4...
Yes, he was a bonehead in Game 2 but to pin the loss on him is a disservice. It was really because others didn’t show up to play as hard.
But, if we can replace Eager’s toughness and speed on the 4th line for $900K, I’d be fine not re-signing him.
by IsThisTheYear? on Jun 7, 2011 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow...
Eager didn’t play game 4, I know that and I didn’t even get to watch the game, I was receiving text message updates from home. McGinn took his signature stupid boarding penalties, though. I want to see both of them back, and I really think a full season with Sharks coaching staff will benefit Eager. He’s got the potential to become a great 3rd or 4th liner with his quick trigger shot and his speed. Plus he really likes to agitate. If he can better hone those abilities, I think he can become a key member to a Sharks cup victory, much like he was in Chicago.
I like this Roster but I agree with the thoughts on Bogosian. Keep White instead. I say keep lookginf for a shutdown Dman. I would also rather keep Tory Mitchell instead of Wellwood, mainly because of his speed and creativity with the puck.
Bleeding teal and black all the way from NY since '91.
"You do that, you go to the box, you know. Two minutes, by yourself, you know and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free. "-Denis Lemieux
4/19/11, a day that will live in infamy... for Kings fans.
Correction about a correction...
My bad… pulled trigger too late. Saw you corrected yourself!
Bleeding teal and black all the way from NY since '91.
"You do that, you go to the box, you know. Two minutes, by yourself, you know and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free. "-Denis Lemieux
4/19/11, a day that will live in infamy... for Kings fans.
I’d rather have White for like $3.5 than Bogosian for the same. I’ve watched Bogosian play and i’m not impressed. I would wanna stay away from him
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 7, 2011 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions
We need more Help other than D
Please Doug no more rookies on the team, unless they belong. I don’t want to hear another off-season about allowing “our young guys to be given a shot at making this team”. I want proven NHL players on this next years team.
That’s what this team had most of the season. Unless Eager, Mayers, Nichol, Wellwood, Mitchell, and Pavelski being the majority of the bottom six was somehow too many rookies. Or maybe you mean Couture? Or the one rookie (Braun mostly) we occasionally had on defense when someone was hurt?
The Sharks need to find out if what they have in Worcester is going to be NHL-worthy at some point before the top end players start leaving/retiring. We definitely shouldn’t fill every slot on the roster with them, but you have to have a farm system in hockey because always signing vets ages your team and pushes you nearer the cap. And I’m not sure we got so much from Eager and Mayers (and Mitchell and Wellwood at times) that couldn’t be replaced by someone from Worcester.
Believing in the Sharks, one photoshop at a time. GO SHARKS!
Tampa went to the Conf Finals and lost because of their defensive depth, i’m not sure they’ll let Brewer go, unless it was like guaranteed that Richards would want to go there instead of wherever the money is good.
Secondly, Brewer’s cap hit is 4.25 right now, but is making 4.5 (his contract was end loaded). Theres no way he’s going to sign with another team for less or equal to what he’s making now given his shutdown skillset. ESPECIALLY with the lack of depth in the D UFA field, and with all the teams in need of quality defense (especially with Detroit’s Rafalski retiring, and maybe Lidstrom too if he does).
Regarding Bogosian, no thanks, especially not for Seto/Braun/1st. Why? Huge defensive liability, and his point production is less than White’s. Why would we trade quality assets for someone we could already get, and has proven himself in the playoffs already? White is also only 27, so while there is longer potential future for Bogosian, we would STILL need to wait for him to develop better defensively. Additionally, I think White meshed well with our team’s style and will only get better with a full year (he had better numbers than bogosian and he was bounced through 3 teams)
Bogosian is basically Braun playing for a full season. I think if Braun was given a full season I think he’d play as good as or better than Bogosian would in our system.
Basically for the team to come out roughly the same offensively next year, we can only afford to essentially choose between Seto and White, only if we’re getting a top 2 shutdown D guy. Anything else isn’t worth losing one of them. White is the more expendable piece simply because we have Braun as an upcoming offensive dman, but again, with the field of UFA shutdowns so poor, and DW’s conviction of not overpaying for players on day 1 of UFA, I don’t think he’s going to let White go without a guarantee of getting the shutdown he seeks for the money he wants.
How About this everybody
Sign Seto 3yr Deal 6mil
Sign White 2yr Deal 6mil
Sign Joel Ward 2yr Deal 5mil
Sign Scott Hannan 2yr or 1yr Deal 4mil/2mil
Sign Marco Sturm 1yr deal 1mil
Sign Eager, Mayers, Nichol or another Center for the league min.
SAY GOODBYE TO: Wellwood, Mitchell, McGinn, Ferriero, and Maybe Nittymaki
by ChangoT on Jun 6, 2011 8:53 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
No.
-Seto’s going to command at MINIMUM 2.5-3 mill per season.
-White’s going to want 3.5-4.
-I like Joel Ward as a Defensive forward for 3rd line and PK, but Nashville will likely resign him.
-Hannan’s going to gobble up more than 2mill a season on open market easily.
-Marco Sturm’s 32, has had knee injury problems recently, and isn’t as fast as he once was. He’s -not going to go on any more ‘blitzkriegs’ into the offensive zone anytime soon.
I wouldn’t mind keeping Eager, Mayers, and Nichol again next year. They all contain values I admire.
I say we keep Wellwood, he was fantastic this season and really sparked our 3rd line offense. I like Mitchell still, he’s good on the PK, but I’d like him for less. McGinn should stick around, as should Ferriero. Nittymaki stays – Greiss is UFA and likely wont return, Stalock is not ready to fill the roll quite yet IMO. Not to mention, I love Nitty-Nemo tandem.
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com
I rushed the farm's crappy field in 2009
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
I think DW should wait until free agency starts before deciding on Setoguchi’s situation. Maybe he will hope that another team will give him an offer sheet so that he can get compensation, and wouldn’t have to worry about arbitration because if they did end up in arbitration, he would likely be facing many cap issues if he decided to pay Seto his award and improve the D at the same time. If we lose Seto, it’s not that big of a deal because we still have 6 top forwards and DW has been very good at assembling the 3rd and 4th lines over the past few years with guys like Malhotra, Nichol, Ferriero, Desjardins, etc. Plus he has made some very good picks over the past few years that eventually became scoring powerhouses. In other words, Seto comes back, great. If not, oh well, he can be replaced.
I am against getting Bogosian. Re-signing White is a much better option because he is more experienced, already knows the team here, and will have a much better season coming up given he returns since he will mesh with them from the start. Maybe DW could get White in on a small rise and/or a signing bonus. Then he could get a good UFA D-man like Babchuk, Hedja, Ericsson, or Montador. They are pretty good, and not way overpriced like Brewer, Jovanovski, Bieksa, Markov, etc.
Re-sign White, Ferriero, Desjardins
Say goodbye to Wallin, Huskins, Mayers, McGinn
I don’t really see Seto going to arbitration. He got a 1 year deal this year because he had a largely down year the year before that. However this last season he put up numbers again close to that “down” year, and yet was also playing with Thornton for half the season (like what he was doing in his record year). I think he’ll recognize this and accept a 2-3 year deal at 2.1-2.4 mil, because he will (or his agent should) know that if in those 2 years that if he continues to grow he could get a bump to 4+ mil (similar to pavelski) after it.
However if DW waits until free agency he could get burned by an offer sheet. Remember what we did to the Blackhawks last year. Yes, the offer was a legitimate one to help the team, however it was also intended to put the Hawks into a bad positions and force them to have to give up a good player. That is the only way offer sheets are really going to work in the post cap world.
And that is the position the Sharks could find themselves. A team in need of some scoring pop yet also has much more cap room takes a shot at Seto (since he’s young) and drops a 3 year 2.6-3 a year deal, and we either have to let him go for slim pickins (2nd round pick) or retain him for more than we would want to and be forced to give up either some 3rd line guys (going with rookies or cheap vets to fill slots) or a D slot.
Basically, if you’re a team that is ass up to the cap like the Sharks are, you don’t give enemies an opening to screw you by letting RFAs you definitely want to keep get to free agency start date.
To comment on your “he can be replaced”………yes, he can. But not right now. And right now is the prime time for the Sharks. He can be replaced eventually with some of the developing picks, however in that time Thornton, Marleau, Heatley, Boyle, etc all get older, and not many players age as well as Lidstrom. DW has built the team with that window of opportunity in mind. Talent can be replaced yes, but futures are just that, future. Very few draft picks are NHL ready when you get them, and most that are are outside of the Sharks’ range (top 5).
Or maybe Doug can spend the money and get Joni Pitkanen, and another shutdown Dman. Then fill the bottom 5spots on forward with scrubs…..
by ChangoT on Jun 6, 2011 9:12 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I would like this, but I see Carolina resigning him.
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com
I rushed the farm's crappy field in 2009
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Here's my dream roster for next year assuming a 63.5 mill salary cap::
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Devin Setoguchi ($2.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Dany Heatley ($7.500m)
Torrey Mitchell ($1.366m) / Brooks Laich ($3.400m) / Joel Ward ($2.200m)
Jamie McGinn ($0.600m) / Scott Nichol ($0.550m) / Jamal Mayers ($0.550m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Marc Staal ($3.975m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Ian White ($3.200m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $63,500,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,425,001; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $74,999
We’d trade Pavelski, Braun, and a 1st (or possibly a prospect instead) for Marc Staal. Seto would sign to another cheap 1 year contract at 2 million since he had an almost identical season to last year, but still shows the potential to be a much better player. White would be resigned at 3.2 mill which should be enough considering that he’ll be playing on the 3rd pairing.
Then DW would go out and and sign UFA’s Brooks Laich and Joel Ward to complete the best offseason for a GM in world history lol.
With this roster we’d easily be cup favorites.
We’d have one of the best (if not THE best) top defense pairings in the league with Boyle and Staal, a solid 2nd defense pairing with the potential for greatness, and we’d probably have the best 3rd pairing in the league with Murray and White.
We’d have plenty of good penalty killers with Laich, Ward, Nichol, Mayers, and Mitchell; so Thornton and Marleau shouldn’t have to kill as many penalties.
And our 3rd line would be one of the best checking lines in the league made up of 3 very good defensive players who all have a lot of offensive potential.
This team would be amazing lol.
I don’t think any of the moves required to make this team are impossible, but it’s pretty unlikely that we could make all of them.
DW isn’t known for making big UFA signings, so signing 2 of the hottest UFAs (Laich and Ward) this offseason would earn DW GM of the Decade award. Also the Rangers may not be willing to hear any trade offers for Marc Staal.
But that’s why i called it my dream roster. =)
I doubt very much that Seto will accept another 1 year deal, and i doubt DW would even offer another 1 year. The last one was simply a risk factor thing to see if he would regress even more that season than the one before (think Cheechoo). He didn’t, and put up similar numbers, so I think he’ll get a 2-3 year deal. Did his performance deserve a raise? Not really, so it’d probably be a back loaded deal, to play into a future bump if performance dictates it.
The Rangers will hear trade offers for Staal. But they’ll just laugh at any that aren’t lopsided in their favor.
True on both counts. =\
I personally have a hockeyman crush on Marc Staal, but we could maybe trade Pavs for Schenn instead. That’s probably a much more likely deal to happen anyways since Burke and Ron Wilson both love Pavelski. Also Schenn’s cap hit will probably be 3 – 3.5 mill so we’d have an extra 500k – 1 million extra cap space to resign Setoguchi with. 2.5 to 3 mill should be enough to resign Setoguchi since he’ll likely be signed to a 2 or 3 year contract.
What about Seto for Schenn? Toronto wants younger players still so them trading schenn isn’t going to happen anyway buuutt I’d rather give up Seto than Pavs. I’d be happy w/ Seto & Braun for Schenn and maybe a lesser fwd for 3rd or 4th line.
Why in the world would we trade Pavelski???
"If you can accept losing, you can't win." ~Vince Lombardi
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by ZeroIndulgence on Jun 7, 2011 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Because Pavelski could potentially get us that dream number 2 defenseman that we’ve needed for so long, and his talents are currently wasted playing on the 3rd line anyways.
This would be true if the 3rd line didnt nearly carry the sharks in their back for a while...
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com
I rushed the farm's crappy field in 2009
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
It’s great for the regular season, but in the playoffs we’d probably be better off with a checking line made up of 2 way forwards who still have scoring potential. Guys like Mitchell, Joel Ward, and Pascal Dupuis are the perfect kinds of guys you want on your 3rd line. Pavelski can fit that mold too, but he’d be much better off playing with other top 6 forwards.
The only Playoff series that the 3rd line didn’t play well in was the Vancouver series. Why? Dunno. But the earlier series they played up to expectations. I think if we break up our 3 line depth it would be a serious mistake.
The only players I want to see gone are Wallin, Huskins, and maybe some of the 4th liners and possibly Mitchell. While we do need a top 2 Dman, I think our best chance of a cup would be to replace Wallin (a bottom pair guy) with a middle pair guy, and then beef up the 3rd/4th line with some really strong PK players.
Because they’d be strong on the PK, our top line would see less PK time and would be more fresh for a change after a successful PK to pull momentum (much like Vancouver does with the Sedins, they don’t PK and when they kill a penalty, the Sedin line explodes that momentum). On top of this, but much more importantly, because they’d be strong PKers, that means they’d be defensively responsible, and so they could be trusted on the ice more than our current 4th line is/was in the playoffs, grinding more time away and wearing out players without giving up lame stuff.
The Wallin upgrade would then solidify the D while keeping our offensive potency. Remember that each game was a close affair until the Sharks lost their legs from fatigue. It never really was a case of defensive breakdowns (other than some questionable plays from Huskins, his normal stuff…) outside of the PK. So solidifying the 4th line’s risk factor and PK ability would allow for a Wallin upgrade to be perfect for the team instead of a #2 that would likely come at the cost of some offensive depth.
It's the offseason
Madness reigns supreme
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
bad idea
Pav has triumphed in both the postseason and Olympics. He’s a core part of this team and trading him would be a step backwards. If I had to choose between landing a huge name D-man like Brewer or Bieksa or keeping Pav, I would choose the latter in a heartbeat.
by zack007attack on Jun 7, 2011 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Forget Brewer and Bieksa, that’s not why I’d want to trade Pavs. No way i’d pick either of those guys over Bieksa.
I’m talking about trading for defenseman like Marc Staal or Luke Schenn. They’re both players who will soon be the 2 best shutdown defensemen in the league, and they both possess some offensive potential as well.
I still think it's adorable that Brooks Laich would get $3.4M on this roster
And Joe Pavelski is traded.
I’m very high on Pavelski, but D-Men like Marc Staal don’t move, even if it is for a player of Pavelski’s stature. And Pavelski for Schenn is all sorts of awful. If we want a #2 D-man, we’re going to have to sign him, or else bet the farm.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
The points of trading Pavelski is to acquire a defenseman, not to clear cap space. What’s so crazy about Laich at 3.4 million? He’s gonna cost 3.4 or 3.5 mill to sign him as a UFA.
Obviously Pavelski is better than Laich, but Laich has everything he needs to be a 3rd line center, and more. Laich is a good defensive player who can kill penalties in Pavelski’s stead.
Pavelski and Braun for Schenn is a pretty damn good deal imo. Ron Wilson and Brian Burke are big Joe Pavelski fans so i think it’s a deal that could happen, if DW ever offered it.
A known quantity for an unknown is not a good deal
I’ll simply agree to disagree on Pavelski for Schenn. But I have to say, considering that Toronto just let Kaberle AND Beauchemin go, I can’t imagine they’d be eager to let Schenn go.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
I forgot they let Beauchemin go, but they could still get along without him. They’re more in need of offensive defensemen than a shutdown guy like Schenn (though he still has offensive potential i suppose). They got 2 good all-around defensemen in Phaneuf and Gunnarsson, and 2 solid defensive defensemen in Keith Aulie, and Komisarek.
They also only have one good center, Mikhail Grabovski who really shouldn’t be playing top line center.
I think they could really use both Pavelski and Braun, more than they could use Schenn, one shutdown defenseman.
Hands off our Schenn!
Don’t even think about that offer sheet business again, Wilson…
And Komisarek isn’t a solid defensive defenseman. Komisarek is terrible.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 18, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m thinkin about a trade. Pavelski and Justin Braun for Luke Schenn.
You guys have the cap space to sign another defenseman in free agency to take Schenn’s place so I really think it would benefit both teams. Assuming you don’t sign Brad Richards, you’ll have a hard time trying to find another center as good as Pavelski aka “The Swiss Army Knife” as Brian Burke referred to him in the Olympics.
I really wouldn't worry about this...
I dont see us letting him go for less than he’s absolutely worth. That’s not the DW way.
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com
I rushed the farm's crappy field in 2009
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Vlasic and Demers together
Were much more effective in the post-season than Boyle and Murray.
I’m just sayin’.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Devin Setoguchi ($2.500m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Dany Heatley ($7.500m)
Torrey Mitchell ($1.366m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($2.000m)
Jamal Mayers ($0.600m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.500m) / Jamie McGinn ($0.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Jan Hejda ($2.500m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Ian White ($3.000m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,800,001; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $199,999
Bleed Teal... Right Now I am puking it - Shadrack (1/14/11)
I agree with most of this
I definitely like the idea of adding Dupuis and re-signing Desjardins. I definitely see Hejda as a possibility, along with a few others as candidates for that third top-pairing D-man we need.
However, I believe we should let go of Mayers, there are better secondary forwards out there within our reach. As for McGinn, he has shown his potential to be a liability for us so I would say it is time to let him walk.
I posted my dream roster sheet below on another post.
by zack007attack on Jun 7, 2011 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Whaa? McGinn looked great in the playoffs. He was fast, physical, great on the forecheck, and he’s still got that offensive potential. He’s like a younger Ben Eager, but less mean and stupid.
I think Mayers – Nichol – McGinn would make for a great 4th line. Mayers and Nichol can both kill penalties and take faceoffs, i hope we resign them.
McGinn took two major penalties which each could have cost us a game. He had some really good offensive flashes last season but this year, they didnt’ really seem to come out much. I feel there are better secondary forwards we can acquire through free agency.
Nichol had a decent year, but he got injured in February which kept him out for a while; his age seems to be catching up to him and again, we can do better than that.
by zack007attack on Jun 7, 2011 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions
They can both likely be signed for near the league minimum, and they both can still add a lot to the team.
We shouldn’t get rid of McGinn because he took a couple bad penalties on accident, and one of them took a defenseman out of the game anyways which should’ve really helped us (it didn’t though).
Nichol is getting old but he’s a great face off guy, a good penalty killer, and he still brings a lot of energy.
You dont let McGinn walk because he took penalties...
I see us getting him for league minimum if we use those penalties as a reason to only sign him for so much…
Also, both of those penalties, no matter how ‘major’ they were, were nothing compared to what Rome just did… and by that measure, i’m PUMPED that he decked Rome into the boards…
Put it this way, he’s not Claude Lemieux dumb… and Claude was kept around… Hell, we even tried him out when he was 45…
McGinn is a keeper in my eyes.
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com
I rushed the farm's crappy field in 2009
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You don’t let him walk because of a couple penalties (like the Eager situation). You let him walk because his offensive punch and overall playstyle has regressed over the past 2 seasons into an enforcer instead of a real player.
It is something to have speed and grit and size, but you have to use those NOT as an enforcer, but like Clowe, protecting the puck and using that size and strength to control the boards etc, then use your speed jump to open lanes etc.
Unfortunatly he and maybe even the coaching staff seem to be focusing on the line “I gotta be more physical!”. No, he doesn’t. If he continues down the enforcer role, we don’t need him.
It doesn’t look like Mcginn will live up to his original expectation of being a 2nd or 3rd line winger, but he’d still make a great 4th liner.
He’s big, fast, strong, physical, and he’s still got some offensive talent. He just needs to get a little more discipline, and start working on the defensive side of his game, and he’ll be a perfect 4th liner.
I’ve wanted us to sign Jan Hejda for the past couple years, but now i’m starting to think he’s not much of an upgrade over Murray.
I wonder how much he’d cost us in free agency. If we could get him for 2.5 mill then we should definitely do it, but i don’t think that’ll be the case. If he wants 3+ million which he probably will, then i think i’d rather keep Murray with Boyle and use the extra cap space to upgrade our 3rd line or something.
That would be the best case, the upgrade over Murray. I’m of the belief that we’ll lose our 3 line offensive depth if we go for a top 2 Dman (especially since the UFA field is poor and theres LOTS of competition, I don’t think we’ll get anyone for a good price, and then have to let Seto or White go). We need a 2nd pairing Dman (upgrade over Wallin and preferably over Murray too) and then solidify the 3rd/4th lines offensive punch and defensive responsibility paired with PK ability.
Which is why i think it would be ideal if we could trade Pavelski for that dream number 2 defenseman we’ve been wanting, and then sign UFA Brooks Laich to center our 3rd line.
We wouldn’t be losing much scoring depth since Laich can put points (he’s basically a 20g 50p guy), and he’s a very good defensive player and penalty killer. If Laich makes it to July 1st, we should be able to sign him for something under 4 mill. Then we could try to sign a guy like Pascal Dupuis or Joel Ward (if their still available) to round out our 3rd line.
Mitchell – Laich – Dupuis/Ward would make for a great 3rd line. They can all kill penalties, they are all very good defensive players, and they can all score.
By doing this we’d be getting a huge upgrade on defense, and our 3rd line would still be an offensive threat.
Except that dream #2 is probably going to command more than just Pavelski, and it is also reliant on the Sharks signing one or 2 of the top offensive UFAs (though they’re in the top ufa column specifically because of the poor depth of the UFA market). Theres a difference between a dream roster and a realistic dream roster.
I could see and agree with dream moves like trading Pavelski, Braun, and some picks for a guy like Staal. However combining an already unlikely and thus dream trade with numerous other unlikely UFA signings that individually would be unnecessary/bad moves without the aforementioned trade.
Hence my belief that the Sharks would be better suited to looking for that #3/4 D that is simply an upgrade over Wallin (and Murray if possible), keep White, and then fill out the bottom 4-5 with decent yet cheap defensive forwards that can play the PK strongly and be trusted to do high minutes there.
Dreams are just that, dreams. If they can’t be realistically achieved, then there is no point in aspiring to them.
I know, I already said all that above:
I don’t think any of the moves required to make this team are impossible, but it’s pretty unlikely that we could make all of them.
DW isn’t known for making big UFA signings, so signing 2 of the hottest UFAs (Laich and Ward) this offseason would earn DW GM of the Decade award. Also the Rangers may not be willing to hear any trade offers for Marc Staal.
But that’s why i called it my dream roster. =)
It’s probably more realistic to trade Pavelski for Luke Schenn than for Marc Staal though since Toronto has a greater need for a center, and Burke and Ron Wilson both really like Pavelski.
The UFA signings aren’t necessary though, it would just be nice. I’d like to see us get a good 3rd line center to replace pavelski but we could always have Wellwood or Ferriero to play on the wing if we can’t find anyone else.
Here's my proposal:
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Dany Heatley ($7.500m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m)
Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Torrey Mitchell ($1.366m)
Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.700m) / Pascal Dupuis ($2.000m)
Devin Setoguchi ($2.300m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Justin Braun ($0.875m) / Ian White ($3.000m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $63,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,325,001; BONUSES: $587,500
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $3,262,499
This is with the bonus cushion. With this cap space, I figure we can spend up to $2,000,000 on one of the following D-men:
Jan Hedja
Jonathan Ericsson
Anton Babchuk (my favorite choice)
Then we can sign one of the following 4th-line forwards for up to $1,000,000
Jeff Tambellini
Ville Leino
Eric Belanger
Ruslan Fedotenko
Brendan Morrison
Jeff Halpern
mitchell on 2nd line instead of couture?
also if we don’t like seto now we’re gonna hate him when he’s not playing with thornton. i say we go for hejda and leino. that’d be sweet
BLEED TEAL
my mistake
I didn’t organize this right when I entered it on CapGeek’s calculator. Mitchell could be on the third or fourth line. I strongly believe that if we got a guy like Belanger or Leino, TMac could use the 3rd and 4th lines more often. Of the 6 forwards I listed, I gave them preference because they remind me much of Manny, who was a brilliant secondary forward with his faceoffs and penalty killing.
by zack007attack on Jun 7, 2011 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I didnt even notice...
I thought you were just putting them in order of priciest to cheapest lol.
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com
I rushed the farm's crappy field in 2009
www.californiagoldenblogs.com
Still missing that Number 2 Defenseman
I don’t think Hedja or Babchuck are the answers to our problem. We would need to make bigger moves to acquire what we need. I think it would be a miracle if Pavs, Seto, and Clowe are all Sharks next year
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 7, 2011 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
not necessarily
You can’t judge a player’s quality by their price tag from previous seasons. Many are overpaid and underpaid. Babchuk had a great season even though Calgary didn’t make the playoffs. Calgary is also undergoing a semi-process of rebuilding having had a change of GM shortly into the season.
We don’t need to shell out a lot of cap space to improve our D, nor do we need one that is deemed to be so high quality by the media (guys like Bieksa, Brewer, etc).
I would say right now that Pavs and Clowe will definitely be back next year. As for Seto, I am on the fence because anything can happen (arbitration, offer sheet, etc).
by zack007attack on Jun 7, 2011 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree that we can definitely improve our defense significantly without moving any major pieces but I fear we may overpay significantly due to the shallow pool of talent in this years defensive UFA class. We could definitely, in theory, make a formidable roster using nothing but UFA’s and letting people like Eager and Mitchell walk but I think we might be able to gain more wiggle room if we’re willing to trade
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 8, 2011 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions
remember this guy?
Sheldon Souray……. he might be bought out from Edm. Maybe a try out for the Sharks. He does have a BOOMING shot!!!!!!!
Go Big or Go Home
by ChangoT on Jun 7, 2011 8:14 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
pass
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 8, 2011 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Trade inevitable
I feel like if we want that number 2 defenseman it only makes sense to work in a trade somewhere. Too me, if we aren’t going to resign setoguchi, it would make sense to just to a sign and trade rather than letting him walk because we could package him with a prospect and a pick for an effective D-man not on the UFA list. It would really be a waste to just let him walk. If he isn’t going to be in a sharks uniform next season, i hope we at least use him for a trade. But assuming we don’t trade anyone and just let people like Seto walk (bad idea IMO) this is the best rosterbation I could come up with for now (Note: I would rather have Pitkanen than White but I doubt we could have both)
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Dany Heatley ($7.500m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Joel Ward ($1.500m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.400m) / Kyle Wellwood ($0.650m)
Jamal Mayers ($0.600m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.500m) / Benn Ferriero ($0.850m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Joni Pitkanen ($4.000m)
Jason Demers ($1.250m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Anton Babchuk ($1.400m) / Douglas Murray ($2.500m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $61,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,483,334; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $516,666
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 8, 2011 7:15 AM PDT reply actions
this is using only the UFA pool and using the very conservative assumption that the salary cap only increases to $61 mill
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 8, 2011 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions
That lineup involves not only resigning wellwood at a shit contract for how well he played (and that he was making 1.2 before he went to KHL. His low contract this year was simply because he was reentering so the Blues were taking a risk with him), but it involves signing 4 different UFAs, 3 of which are likely to be largely desired and thus competition driving up prices.
People keep forgetting how poor the field is, yet many teams are looking for defensive upgrades. The price for quality people is going to be high, yet most “dream roster” listings have people at only 500k above what they’re making now.
also, it’s pretty obvious i’m absolutely befuddled regarding what to do with Setoguchi
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 8, 2011 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I think that if DW is planning to keep Seto, his best course of action would be to resign him to the same $1.8 million deal, but throw in a bonus as a payraise.
But if DW is planning to let him go, maybe he is hoping another team will give him an offer sheet during free agency so that he will get compensation in the form of draft picks. Because if Seto files for arbitration and his award is too high for DW to accomodate, Seto becomes a UFA and there would be no compensation given (just like Niemi’s situation with the Blackhawks last year).
by zack007attack on Jun 8, 2011 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
DW isn’t going to let Seto go. You just don’t let young talent like that with possible potential walk for nothing unless you specifically need it for cap space for a a top top tier player (like letting Ehrhoff go for the cap space to get Heatley. There is 0% chance he would have done that for anything less than a 1st line quality player).
Resigning him and trading him? That I could see happening if needed, but theres no way he’s going to just let him walk.
Niemi’s situation with the hawks last year was much different, because the Hawks had to shed cap space to get UNDER, not what the situation would be for the Sharks, to have cap space simply available for a UFA/trade. I guarantee that if it was possible for the Hawks to afford Niemi’s arbitration and fill out their roster with entry level guys, they would have retained him instead of taking the gamble (that lost, lol) on Turco. As it was they were barely under the cap with their full entry level guys.
You can’t resign him and then trade him in that same offseason. You would just trade his RFA rights so that the team he’s traded to can work out a deal with him or go to arbitration.
I was referring to resigning him and then working with the team we had while involving him in a mid season trade before the deadline for the piece we needed. The entire point is he’s too valuable an asset for now and the future to simply let go for scraps to a sub 3 mil offer sheet or to just walk entirely.
I think Pitkanen's going to command more than 4 million as a UFA.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"-Wayne Gretzky"-Michael Scott.
by SharksFanEst.1994 on Jun 8, 2011 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
lol what’s make you think we can sign 5 UFA’s to the same contracts they were previously signed to? Don’t you think they’re all going to want a little bit of a raise? Especially since 4 of them currently play for other teams. Why would they leave their current teams to play for San Jose at that money?
Joel Ward will likely cost 2 – 2.5 mill
Wellwood will likely cost at least 1 mill
Dupuis will likely want around 2.5 mill
Pitkanen will probably want 4.5 – 5.5 million
Babchuk i’m not so sure about, but anything under 2.5 mill would probably be insulting.
That’s just what cap geek says. I didn’t make capgeek and it was my first time using it to generate a roster. But I still don’t think that roster is unfeasible is the cap increases to the projected 63.5. That would leave us with $3 million in cap space to accommodate for the differences in projections and realities that you just mentioned
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 8, 2011 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Those players are all UFAs that haven’t yet signed new contracts so it has their old cap hit values listed for the time being.
I don’t think we’d be able to sign all of those UFA’s even with a 63.5 mill salary cap.
Also DW isn’t really known for making many big UFA signings so it’d be pretty insane if he signed 4 of them in the offseason. Resigning Wellwood would be expected though.
What are you doing with Justin Bruan, Ian White, and Devin Setoguchi??
Those 3 are all great players that are missing from the roster for no reason at all. Maybe think about what player Seto and Braun could get you in a trade, and use him instead of one of the UFA’s.
Also, Dupuis plays wing AFAIK. Pavelski would have to center our 3rd line, and i suppose you could put Dupuis on our 2nd line, but that wouldn’t really be ideal.
I did think
Too me, if we aren’t going to resign setoguchi, it would make sense to just to a sign and trade rather than letting him walk because we could package him with a prospect and a pick for an effective D-man not on the UFA list. It would really be a waste to just let him walk. If he isn’t going to be in a sharks uniform next season, i hope we at least use him for a trade. But assuming we don’t trade anyone and just let people like Seto walk (bad idea IMO) this is the best rosterbation I could come up with for now (Note: I would rather have Pitkanen than White but I doubt we could have both)
I clearly addressed that before I gave my roster. I think Seto and a prospect (Braun) could be packaged together to get a D-man that isn’t a UFA. And I clearly stated that I would let Ian White walk to get Pitkanen. I didn’t say that this roster was the ideal one for me or the probable one. It was just what I saw from the UFA list when you don’t factor in trading but I indicated that I thought a trade might be the better way to go. I understand my rosterbation may have rubbed you the wrong way but please read what I say next time before posing rhetorical questions and being condescending.
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 8, 2011 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I did read that, but you gotta name the D-man you’d trade for and pick which UFA you then wouldn’t sign. You can’t just put together a roster without Seto or Braun and not also include the person you traded them for.
I’m just trying to help you put together a somewhat realistic roster. You gotta think about how much UFA’s will want based on their skills and recent performances, and if you want to move RFA’s or signed players like Seto and Braun (respectively) then you gotta think about what players you would like to trade for and whether it would be a fair deal for both sides.
Also there’s no way we’d ever let Seto walk. If DW couldn’t come to agreement with Seto on his next contract, he would then get traded, or possibly go to arbitration.
Ah ok I see
I’m really new at this. I’ve been watching Sharks hockey for 8 years and have Bachelors in Economics so I understand the two separately but I’ve made it a mission of mine to better understand the Economics of Hockey and finally put the two together. Usually in the off season I just read what other people think and wait on the real season to start but I decided to try to contribute more to the discussion this summer. I also made the incorrect assumption that Capgeek used projections for future salaries via probable offer sheets rather than their cap hit from the previous season. All in all though I do appreciate you trying to help me understand how this works.
As for a non UFA defenseman to pursue I actually am not sure yet. I know that two UFAs that stand out to me are Pitkanen and Babchuck. I think we would have to overpay for Pitkanen so I wouldn’t want him for more than 4.4 but I think we could get Babchuck in a solid deal because he is so underappreciated. But non-UFAs that come to mind:
Marc Staal (Improbable), Brent Burns (eh. maybe?), or Ryan Suter (hey at least it’s not Weber)
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 9, 2011 3:40 AM PDT up reply actions
And hey, at least I didn't do this =P
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Jarome Iginla ($7.000m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Alexander Ovechkin ($9.538m)
Dany Heatley ($7.500m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m)
Martin St. Louis ($5.625m) / Eric Staal ($8.250m) / Steven Stamkos ($3.725m)
Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Nicklas Backstrom ($6.700m) / Ryane Clowe ($3.625m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Shea Weber ($4.500m)
Nicklas Lidstrom ($6.200m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Mark Streit ($4.100m)
GOALTENDERS
Pekka Rinne ($3.400m) / Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $800,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $111,546,796; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $688,853,204
"Everybody had a part in this. As you can see, our fans love this. And we love them. And bring on the next team." -Joe Thornton
by waive kent huskins on Jun 9, 2011 3:58 AM PDT up reply actions
This would be so fun...
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com - Where masochism is defined.
I rushed the Furd's farm in 2009
www.californiagoldenblogs.com - Where Cal grads prove they learned something.
Mike Ashley, I dont get you...
www.cominghomenewcastle.com - More masochism, but less hopes trashed.
by SeanCrosby87 on Jun 13, 2011 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Babchuk is the best choice because he wasn’t really overpriced last year ($1.4 million cap hit), so his salary next year is within our reach especially with the salary cap going up a little bit.
Even though Calgary didn’t make the playoffs this year, Babchuk contributed to the team more than most of his teammates. He is probably looking to contribute towards a playoff contender with a great shot at the Cup.
I think we could squeeze him in at a maximum of $2.5 million. We could also re-sign White and have enough space to get our 3rd and 4th line forwards in.
by zack007attack on Jun 10, 2011 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree on Babchuk, I think he’sa solid choice for us, resign White, get Babchuk (hopefully, he could be desirable) for that bottom pairing with White (or maybe see how he is with Boyle, I don’t know how much of a shutdown guy Babchuk is, but he’s got a solid +/-, even with a decent amount of points). Then fill out the rest of the bottom 4-5 with solid PK capable players.
I would say pair Boyle, White, and Babchuk on separate pairings with a lesser D-man (Murray, Demers, Vlasic, Braun). This would be a better way to spread out the ice time so they don’t get worn out so fast (especially Boyle).
On a side note, maybe Petrecki will get some call ups next season.
by zack007attack on Jun 11, 2011 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I think my biggest source of defeatism with acquiring a defenseman
Is that the kind of defenseman we need simply doesn’t move in a trade, unless there are extreme circumstances (Chris Pronger and Dan Boyle come to mind). In general, you have to sign them as FAs, and in order to do that, you have to overspend. That is something I don’t see Doug Wilson doing. And it’s not simply the yearly cap hit or the yearly cash flow that’s of concern. The term of the contract is also important. A contract that goes beyond 5 years is a big deal for anyone, and Wilson is very hesitant to commit to anything beyond 4. I really don’t see the defense getting the guy we need without drafting and grooming him.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Agreed, which is why i’ve been talking about trading Pavelski and Braun. It would suck to lose Pavelski, but if we want to get that dream defenseman we’ve been wanting for the last couple of years we’re going to have to take some drastic measures.
If Pavelski and Braun could get us a guy like Luke Schenn, we should do it in a heartbeat imo.
Pavelski AND Braun…for Luke Schenn???? Really? I’d consider Pavelski and Braun for Shea Weber…but Luke Schenn?
"If you can accept losing, you can't win." ~Vince Lombardi
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by ZeroIndulgence on Jun 9, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
You may have to overpay a little to get a guy like Schenn. Ideally it would just take Pavelski and maybe a pick, but i’d be willing to throw Braun in as well since i’d like to resign White and there’s no room for Braun on our D pairings if we do bring back White.
I think Luke Schenn and Marc Staal are the absolute perfect number 2 defensemen that we need. I think Staal is a little better right now but Schenn is only 21 so who knows who ends up better.
Schenn had 251 hits and 168 shot blocked this regular season, which is more than anyone on the Sharks in either category. Our best shot blocker is Vlasic with 147 and our best hitter is Murray with 203.
Eh Schenn also leads the league in giveaways by a defenseman with 95.
After thinking about it some more, maybe throwing in Braun is overpayment. it’d be worth it to get Marc Staal, but really Schenn isn’t at that level yet. I think all the Leafs fans shouting about how Schenn is the defenseman of the future have gotten to me a little.
He’d still be our perfect number 2 guy, but i don’t think he has that much offensive upside really. He’s just a great defensive defenseman. Trading Pavelski for him should be more than fair imo. A two-way center who’s nearly a point per game player who’s great in the faceoff circle and can kill penalties should definitely be worth more than a shutdown defenseman no more matter how good he is.
I think it’s a great deal that would really help out both teams. Toronto desperately needs a top line center, and we really need a legit top pairing defenseman to play with Dan Boyle.
Trading Pavelski for him should be more than fair imo.
From a Leafs perspective – No.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 18, 2011 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Given that we are trying to shore up our D through development though
Subtracting Braun seems like a backward step. There is just as much likelihood Braun can be our #2 as Schenn.
Schenn’s hit totals are certainly excellent, but I’m a bit hesitant to be immediately up on his shot blocks. Bad teams always block more shots because they give up more. Still, 168 is darned good. I’m not going to deny Schenn is a great prospect, I just don’t think he’s worth Pavelski.
Pavelski is ALSO one of those players around whom you build a team. I understand that you’re looking for our most tradeable assets, but the team that gets the best player wins the trade. At this point in both of their careers, Pavelski is clearly the better player, and it’s still 60/40 that Schenn will be the better player over the course of his career.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Yeah i actually don’t think we should include Braun in the trade. I had included Braun when i was talking about trading for Marc Staal but it’s too much overpayment to include Braun in a trade for Schenn. Throw in some picks or low level prospects if necessary.
In terms of trying to win the cup this year, i think this trade is definitely the right move. Pavelski may be a slightly better player right now but he’s really not the player we need right now. It’s much easier to find a 3rd line center than it is to find a number 2 defenseman, especially considering the cap space constraints we’re under.
In terms of the future, Schenn will more likely end up being the more valuable player. Schenn is 21 and Pavelski will be 27 in a month. Even if Schenn doesn’t end up developing offensively like most Leaf fans expect him to, he’ll still end up being one of the very best defensive defenseman in the league. I’m sure Pavelski will have a better season in the future than the ones he’s had, but I don’t see Pavelski drastically changing. To put it simply, Pavelski is super talented but I think he’s too small and injury prone to ever become an elite top line center, while Schenn will almost certainly become an elite defensive defenseman (at the very least), if he isn’t already.
I think it’d be a great trade for us.
It’s much easier to find a 3rd line center than it is to find a number 2 defenseman
I don’t disagree with this statement at all. What I DO disagree with is the assessment that Joe Pavelski is a 3rd line center. Joe Pavelski is a top 6 forward who played on the third line in order to provide stability to the lineup. He kills penalties, plays the power play, plays against top lines, and is a core type player.
But even then, he’s not enough to attract a true #2 defenseman, and would require other pieces to the trade, because you’re right, #2 D-men are much harder to come by and are more expensive accordingly. Losing Pavelski (plus potentially Braun or picks) to acquire even an asset of Staal’s stature would be taking two steps back to take one forward.
I think you’re putting a very low ceiling on Pavelski. He’s not an Olympian for nothing. Players of his acumen and ability don’t grow on trees. They’re born American Heroes!
GO SHARKS!
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What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Losing Pavelski (plus potentially Braun or picks) to acquire even an asset of Staal’s stature would be taking two steps back to take one forward.
I really don’t think so. What makes you think that? Elite top pairing defenseman are insanely hard to come by. They seem to be really hard to draft, and they seem to take a long time to develop. How else do we get an elite top pairing D man? As long as we’re a serious cup contender we won’t be able to afford to sign one as a UFA, and we’ve never had much luck signing big UFA’s anyways.
When i look at our team and prospects, I see 6 guys who could potentially be elite 1st or 2nd line centers (or they already are): Thornton, Pavelski, Couture, Coyle, Sgarbossa, and Freddie Hamilton. Meanwhile we only seem to have 2 guys who could potentially be top pairing defensemen: Doherty and Petrecki. So i don’t know if our scouts are just better at identifying talent at the center position or what, but I think that trading a top line center for a top pairing defenseman is an absolutely acceptable move for the Sharks.
To put it simply:
1. The Sharks do not have a need for a 1st or 2nd line center with Thornton and Couture, nor do they need (or have room for) another top 6 forward after resigning Seto.
2. The Sharks do need a top pairing defenseman.
3. Pavelski is worth far more to a lot of other teams than he is to the Sharks since he could play top line center for teams like Toronto. On the Sharks he would play as a 3rd line center.
So in conclusion, It would make sense for the Sharks to trade Pavelski for a top pairing defenseman, especially if it’s for a guy like Luke Schenn who has a low cap hit and is still very young and will grow with the team into the future.
IMO Burke laughs at DW in a Pavelski-for-Schenn straight-up trade.
But what do I know.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 18, 2011 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
no way
We need Pavelski because of what he has brought to the team, it would be hard to replace him, given we need to keep a core group of players intact. Pavelski is worth more to us than other teams because of what his time here in SJ has been like. We don’t need to put him on the trade block to get a solid, well rounded defenseman.
by zack007attack on Jun 19, 2011 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
On a totaly unrelated note
The goalie market looks intriguing with the Bryzgalov trade. If he does sign in Philadelphia, they’ll probably look to move Leighton and/or Bobrovsky. Phoenix has put money into LaBarberra, but they could probably use a steady backup. And if Florida loses Voukun, they’ll need a new solution.
Trading either Nittymaki or Niemi (not likely with his contract, but you never know) would be an interesting option. And adding someone like Bobrovsky or Greiss gives us options to allow Stalock to rehab from his injury and continue his development.
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They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Not Nemo. He is a keeper since he has well established himself as our star goalie for now. I don’t think trading Nitty is a good idea (unless he gets injured again), because we still need a worthy backup until Stalock is ready to become a full time part of the roster. I think we should give up Greiss, he has really got shafted over the past couple years and could get more ice time on another team.
On another unrelated note, I still wonder what will happen to Nabby. The only reason NYI would toll his contract is if they had a personal vendetta against him, which they probably don’t. Based on standings and roster needs, I think Nabby is most likely to end up in Colorado, Toronto, Tampa Bay, or even Phoenix.
by zack007attack on Jun 8, 2011 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d kill to trade Niemi…but he’s DW’s guy, so he’s not going anywhere. Shipping out Niitty and getting a cheap backup to chart faceoffs and chew on his jersey would be smart, though.
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by ZeroIndulgence on Jun 8, 2011 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
They’re not going to let Bob go, so Boucher is simply not going to get resigned if they can get Bryzgalov, and Leighton will be traded or dumped in the minors.
Oooh we should totally bring back Boucher to backup Niemi. We could probably sign him for under a mill.
Boucher played well enough, and if they can’t sign Ilya, they’ll keep Bouch, but even then I don’t see him as signing anywhere for less than 1.5 mil, aside from his obvious taste for being a starter.
Yet with all that, Nitty is still better than Bouch. So aside from the fact we’d need to find a deal to trade Nitty, in the end you’d only be saving 500k and getting an inferior backup as well.
For some strange reason
I just get the feeling that Wilson wants to draft Dougie Hamilton in the draft this year… I have no proof at the moment of this (besides drafting Freddie last year) but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Wilson move up to acquire Dougie in the top ten of this years draft…
I wonder if we could trade Braun and our 1st for a higher up first round pick to get him. Maybe throw in a 2nd.
It’d be awesome to have 2 super talented brothers play for us; and they already play on the same team right now so they’re already building some good hockey chemistry together i would think. It’d be like having our own little Sedins, except less creepy. They’re both going to be amazing players without a doubt.
Highly Possible
But you’d need to move into the top 5 for him.
I don’t see anyone other than maybe Columbus moving a top 10 pick. In that case you’d need to move up into the top 10-15 and then go from from there. Not easy by any means.
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Possible, but very doubtful. It would be fantastic to be able to get him, but I think the teams in the top 5 are all in rebuilding mode, except maybe the Devils, and they need defense, but I dunno if they’d want Braun over the possibility of Larsson/Hamilton. Thus, with the exception of the Devils, the other teams likely want the better possible potential of a higher pick than the possible NHL ready but unknown ceiling that Braun has, since they don’t exactly need the immediate young player, since that alone wouldn’t push them into cup contention. Dunno though, thats just my opinion.
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