Wade Belak's Tragic Passing Gives Hockey A Wake Up Call
by Mr. Plank on Sep 1, 2011 4:42 PM PDT
in Special Features
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PrintWith the tragic passing of Wade Belak, Derek Boogaard, and Rick Rypien this summer, along with the loss of ex-Shark Tom Cavanagh in January, new attention has been cast upon the mental health of hockey players across North America. While it may be easy to see the physical toll this great game takes upon the bodies of players, truly attempting to understand the mental strain each individual experiences throughout the course of their career is something that is much harder to comprehend.
Kent Wilson examined these issues today in a superbly written article that parses through all of the information we have at this point in regards to the untimely deaths of Belak, Boogard, and Rypien.
It's a must read for any hockey fan in these humbling hours, especially for those interested in the trials and tribulations of enforcers:
The growing battle over fighting in the sport seems to revolve around the degree to which concussions and/or physical maladies may or may not influence health of current enforcers, particularly in light of the recent tragic passing of men who were perhaps too young to have succumbed to a long-term, chronic issue like CTE. However, the relationships between health, depression, suicide and substance abuse is far more complex than drawing a single, causal line between concussions/chemical misbalance and premature death. The life of an enforcer is replete with stress, anxiety, pain and isolation which, when mixed with certain idiosyncratic factors, may give rise to psychological pathologies, even in the absence of degenerative brain damage.
To me, it all begins with education. Are coaches and leagues of Junior teams educating players on the ramifications of concussions and the use of painkillers or other drugs? Are AHL teams educating their players on these things? Are NHL teams educating their players on these things? Is the League as a whole educating players on these things? Is the NHLPA doing their part to ensure that they are looking at the long-term health and safety of their union members during and after their careers?
Until we can answer that question, quick fixes and rule changes seem slightly premature. As Wilson notes, the increasing battle over the role of fighting in the game will continue to be a hot-button issue for years to come. Technology and medicine have provided increasing breakthroughs on the role and prominence of concussions in the sport from a physical standpoint, but this tragic summer has begun to shed even more light upon the mental dangers associated with the game as well. It is tricky territory for the NHL to maneuver of course, as the complexity of these issues does not lend itself to a one size fits all umbrella approach, but it is one that should be tackled with as much passion as the League undertakes when they test potential rule changes at their annual R&D Camp.
By analyzing the source of these issues, and not just the end-result, bold steps can be taken to ensure the mental and physical health of the players playing the game is a priority going forward. That's the first step to take before we can try and curb what we have witnessed this summer, and understand whether this is just an painful anomaly or a disturbing trend that is progressively getting worse as players get bigger, quicker, and more competitive when fighting for roster spots.
As little as twenty years ago the dialogue surrounding concussions in professional sports was non-existent. Players were superhuman, the culture of the game told us so. New developments, specifically the head injury to Marc Savard on March 7, 2010, changed that discussion forever. Rule changes were put in place during the 2010-2011 season for hits to the head, and while Rule 48 is far from perfect, it was a step in the right direction.
Emerging data has begun to renew the debate concerning the link between head trauma and mental health, and the use of painkillers to numb physical issues is still a stone that has largely left unturned despite it's widespread use.
As Science Daily notes, the NHL and NHLPA have "historically paved the way in professional sports for establishing comprehensive concussion surveillance and maintenance patterns." The League and the NHLPA took another important step today, issuing a joint statement that stated their intent to analyze the issues that led to this somber summer.
Educating players on the effects of these decisions, whether they be fighting, hits to the head, mental health, or prescription drug use, is the first step towards attempting to understand what must be done going forward. Education provides a community with the tools to become more accepting of the taboos commonly associated with male professional athletes, provides an opportunity for them to reach out and feel comfortable expressing emotions of sadness and depression within a culture that has historically seen those traits as an indisputable sign of weakness.
Because a summer like this, whether it is a tragic anomaly or a troubling sign of things to come, deserves a serious response.
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At this point the only thing I can think of is When, not if, this is going to happen again...
Drew: 'Oh no.. That is certainly the meaty part alright, but it's not the thigh..."
Randy: "No... that bone is NOT connected to the thigh bone..."
www.fearthefin.com - Where masochism is defined.
I rushed the Furd's farm in 2009
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Pretty much agree on all counts.
Especially that educating the players has got to be the way to go, and it’s got to go from top to bottom. The NHL/NHLPA need to educate guys when they reach this stage, but so do the AHL, ECHL, QMJHL, USHL, NCAA, and even groups like the Junior Sharks and peewee leagues. It doesn’t have to be a full on medical breakdown for the younger groups, but at least teaching them “if you have these symptoms go to the doctor and follow every bit of his/her advice” would get them started on the right path.
My cousin plays high school football right now and has had two fairly significant concussions in the last year and a half. Yet he doesn’t know anything about the effects they might have on him (and essentially said he needed to play to “walk it off”) and refuses to hear what relatives say about it because “my coaches didn’t say anything.” That’s not the NHL’s fault, but it seems to be something lacking across all sports that the NHL can lead the way on.
Believing in the Sharks, one photoshop at a time. GO SHARKS!
Wow.. just heard about Belak…
UP THE PUCKS!
"This is a good time to come together and raise our middle finger in the air." - Dan Boyle
by TheSoundOfHockey on Sep 1, 2011 7:15 PM PDT reply actions
I'm bothered by the talk of concussion, since Belak never had one.
I am bothered by the ignorance surrounding mental illness.
First off, YES… concussions need to be dealt with, and yes, hockey is notorious for players playing through physical injuries. And yes, repeated concussions have been linked to development of clinical depression. http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0903b.shtml
But off the ice, people from all walks of life misunderstand and know very little about depression. It bothers me that most people say “Depressed? What did he have to be depressed about” and missing the whole point of clinical depression: you don’t need a reason to have it. It just is.
I have had mild depression, which never needed medication. It’s more like a hangover, but if you recognize it, you can treat it. Luckily for me it just meant a bad feeling which can be cured by getting up, exercising, or being with friends. Other things trigger it, notably my shift from being active (hockey 4 times a week) to a job in front of a computer. Alcohol of course compounds it, and it can snowball. But people with more severe clinical depression have to diagnose and treat it, often with medication. And because it’s literally all in your head, you can hide it or be functional, i.e. go to work, take care of family, etc. But make no doubt, you are sick.
So while my condolences and sympathy is with the Belak family and families like theirs, it would do people justice to really understand what’s at the heart of the problem and not ADD to the general ignorance of the disease by passing it off on things like concussions, life circumstance, or other non-issues that might or might not have contributed. What needs to happen is people not treat depression like a weakness, but like the disease that it is.
by Defenseman13 on Sep 1, 2011 7:21 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
Osca de la Hoya
is damn near a manic depresive. He said he thought about committing suicide just a few months ago. His stemmed from cocaine and alcohol abuse but has said that it’s always been there (most likely because of father issues). Co owner of one of the two biggest boxing promotion companies in the world, wife, kids and like a drug addict it just didn’t matter.
It’s difficult to determine if (whoever’s) depression is clinical or stems from something. It can come from anywhere and it affects people differently. I think some people are born with it. Some people are naturally more active and hyper so why not the other way around. But for those who aren’t, it’s more like Anorexia. Once it’s in your head it’s really hard to get out. And then of course there’s brain damage.
A lot of people overcome it, others just live with it and then there’s those who die from it.
Every athlete that plays in a contact sport should know or it should be taught that they all have the possibility of suffering from any number of mental issues that stem from physical ones. But like defensemean13 said, you never know if they already had it.
Everyone’s situation is different which is why it’s so difficult. Also why I think a lot of people just throw a blanket over it and decide on simple reasons for it (lazy, unproductive, no one to push them).
Almost no one can help someone who’s suffering from depression anyway, it all comes down to them. And it’s something that’s with you all the time. It’s not like all you have to do is just not do it or go out and not buy it. Meds can help but every other alternative should be tried first. But it is sad that so many people who might be in too deep are afraid of using meds as a stepping stone to help them get back on their feet.
I’m not at all disagreeing on the nature of depression. I’ve known several people with varying degrees of depression and it’s absolutely a terrible thing, hard to overcome for some and hard to get help with for many individuals who have it.
But I’ve yet to see a single report that Belak had depression or concussions. I find it hard to believe that he didn’t have either, though. I can’t say which he had or if he did have them at all, but that’s hopefully part of what the NHL and NHLPA investigation into the matter can discover. I would be surprised, though, to discover that a guy who fought as often as Belak didn’t have some form of brain damage even if he never had a concussion. That could have contributed to or amplified any depression he already had.
Because we don’t know if Belak had either thing affecting him, examining concussions as a possible cause is not adding to an ignorance of depression. Nor is examining depression as a possible cause ignoring the importance of concussions. Both things should be examined in his case. In cases like Rypien’s (where he was documented as having depression) or Boogaard’s (where he had no documented depression but had a number of concussions), the focus should probably be on what had already been found (though some cross-examination might be beneficial).
When this many deaths of young players/ex-players happens in a short period of time, every potential cause should be examined in my opinion, be it fighting, depression, concussions, other forms of brain damage, substance abuse, and anything else short of a Bettman-Vampire-Conspiracy.
Believing in the Sharks, one photoshop at a time. GO SHARKS!
In the effort to display my RSS feed’s sense of humor, it just popped up two articles at odds on the Belak-depression issue.
This one says he did have depression according to unnamed sources.
This one says he didn’t suffer from depression according to his father.
Believing in the Sharks, one photoshop at a time. GO SHARKS!
Having studied psychology for two years...
I’m still not sure I agree that depression needs to be brought more into the public spotlight the way it has been. First off, there is a HUGE difference between sadness and depression, and unfortunately, for too many mental health professionals don’t seem to understand that. Every ‘depressed" person I’ve ever met, my teenaged self included, has had a legitimate reason or two to be down on life. If you don’t have any friends, just lost your job/wife/loved one or whatever, yes, you’re going to be down for an extended period of time. THIS IS NOT CLINICAL DEPRESSION. The disorder is severely over-diagnosed to push pills on people who would be much better off with one-on-one counselling (talking shit out with people trained to listen). I’m not saying that there AREN’T people that have depression. It’s not a made-up condition like ADD/ADHD. But people need to understand that being down on life FOR A PERFECTLY GOOD REASON is not depression. This stupid over-diagnosis means that people now AREN’T discussing their problems, and instead are self-diagnosing themselves as “depressed” with a belief that they are nigh uncurable without pills.
Worst part is, it’s nothing more than good marketing.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 1, 2011 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Depression in the public spotlight
HAS made more people able to talk about their feelings. The thing about clinical depression is that it’s not linked to any external factors in your life. Everything could be going great, and you’re still depressed. The old way of telling people to “suck it up” or “look on the bright side” didn’t exactly help people who needed medication because they had a genuine physical and medical problem, not an emotional one.
If clinical depression is over-diagnosed, that’s far preferable to being under-diagnosed. Missing a diagnosis means you can’t help someone at all because you haven’t addressed the root problem.
If someone who’s just sad is diagnosed as being clinically depressed, they can simply be rediagnosed.
Call me crazy, but I like the scenario where you can help people who need it.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Maybe it has helped the people who actually need help, sure.
But when you consider that these anti-depressants can lead to suicidal thoughts if misprescribed and a litany of other side effects, saying that “over-diagnosis is a good thing” is absolutely wrong. And you really overestimate the North American attitude about medication and self-help – as I said before, people who have a legitimate reason to be sad are not depressed, but they believe they ARE because they have no way to come to terms with their problems. The bombardment of Zoloft ads doesn’t help things either. People want a quick fix. They don’t want to do things the hard way and face their problems. I’ve always loved the statistic about poor people having higher rates of depression in every textbook I’ve owned… No shit they do, poverty is inherently bleak!
All in all though, the reality is that people aren’t getting proper treatment. I’m standing by that. I’m almost so inclined to say it’s worth letting a few people with actual depression slip through the cracks if it means salvaging the lives of thousands of others who don’t.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I've seen anti-depressants change people
I’ve even seen cases where such drugs led to suicidal thoughts. In that particular case, it was done with full knowledge of the side effects because of an error in judgement, thinking that pain management was preferable to the alternative.
I think misprescription happens less than you think. The red flags for anti-depressants are pretty big ones.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Sorry, but I need to take you to task on two things
First of all…shame on you for saying ADHD is a made-up condition.
Second, I agree that many people would have a greater benefit from counseling and therapy than from medication. However, if you think it’s the shrinks pushing the meds, you’re way off. The trend is MUCH more patient-driven.
These people just want to feel better, one way or another, but the stigma of therapy is still huge (although it’s getting better). Given the choice between spilling your guts to a stranger for several weeks, or just taking a pill, most people choose to go with the pill. I guarantee you any clinical psychiatrist worth their bacon also recommends the patient attend counseling in concert with taking medication, but the attendance rate is very low.
ADHD IS a made-up condition.
It’s an invention of lazy parents, teachers and psychologists who don’t want to understand the children in front of them and help them find a proper outlet for their energy. Kids are GOING to be rambunctious. That’s perfectly natural. Medicating them so they turn into classroom zombies is absolutely not the right thing to do. There MAY be children and adults who genuinely have zero ability to focus. That’s possible (but certainly rare). But again, I’m going to say the same things about overdiagosis I did earlier: People who don’t fucking understand psychology are going to immediately label themselves and/or others because it’s the easy way out of something that might take modest effort. That includes some of the idiots walking around with psych degrees. Leave it to the politics-first university system to churn these bozos out.
And yes, I agree with your statements about people’s attitude towards medication and therapy. I understand it’s difficult to talk to a stranger, but that’s the thing, it doesn’t always need to be a stranger. Sometimes all anyone needs is a confidant, and if society could just figure out how to communicate more openly, I honestly think it would be a happier place to live. Of course though, therapists are essential. Sometimes personal confidants don’t have all the answers or the right techniques. In that respect, I really feel the public should be better educated as to when a therapist should be sought after.
Hooray for humanist psychology. Apologies in advance if I offend anyone. It’s not my intent. I’m just sharing the opinions I’ve developed during my time studying psychology.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
You really didn’t need to “casually” mention your opinion on ADHD just to give yourself an opportunity to rant about it. Let’s stay on topic.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
Bad timing!
Feel free to email each other.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
I understand your feelings
But, as you point out, concussions HAVE to be a part of the larger picture. Yes, Wade Belak never suffered one.
But the NHL needs to look at the culture of the sport and the risk factors. The risk factors that are being exposed here is that players in the NHL may not have a clear understanding of depression, the long term risks of concussions, and the effect of strong prescription medications or strong narcotics.
Depression is not the only issue here. Taking prescription medication can bring on personality changes as well, and they need not be pure depression. Having known people with clinical depression and other conditions requiring medication, there’s a whole spectrum of issues that need to be considered.
Concussions can be a concern for many reasons. Taking medication can be a concern for many reasons. In some cases, those concerns overlap.
Yes, there is a good deal of ignorance still surrounding depression, but it’s only one aspect of a very multi-faceted and complex problem here.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
butwadebelakisnotamemberofthesharksorganization
#toosoonbuticanthelpmyself
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Sep 5, 2011 3:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Fighting needs to be taken out
Anyone who says otherwise is clearly not affected by whats happened in these last few months, and is being selfish to have himself a moment of pleasure at the expense of these players destroying their lives.
The toll it takes on a player on a long-term scale is little by little having an effect of dysfunctional proportions, evident by the recent tragedies the hockey world has witnessed.
The effects are not only physical, they go much deeper than that on an emotional and spiritual level as well. All that anger it creates between players can make a person really unstable, especially after one of the lost fights he participates in.
Its in everyone’s best interest to take fighting out of the game, everyone except for the media and marketers who make millions off of fans who have degraded themselves as dignified human being to their basic animal state to enjoy two people going at it for no good reason whatsoever.
I know this is a highly debated issue and I’m probably going to get a lotta crap for saying this. But I’m just asking to take what I said into consideration and look at it from another perspective other than our own as fans.
Just please, don’t give the argument “its been in the game for ages!”
"It was good to get banged and give a few bangs." - Jonathan Cheechoo
But is that really the problem? I’m going to go ahead and say “it’s been in the game for ages!” It has been (which doesn’t make it right or wrong, necessarily), but this is really the first time that something like this has happened.
Depression can arise from all sorts of sources. I understand your view on fighting, and that’s fine. But I’m not sure it’s the right time for all the “eliminate fighting” folks to jump out and get on a soapbox. As far as we know, there’s no direct relationship between the fighting/physicality of hockey and the unfortunate deaths of these players.
The hockey player’s head needs to be protected more in the rules. That’s a given. But I’m extremely reluctant to say that it’s the NHL or NHLPA’s fault that these tragedies happened. In fact, I’m hesitant to even blame hockey. It’s pure conjecture at this point.
"Logan Couture is a dirty, filthy man. Tell all your friends" - Mr. Plank
Member of the Torrey Mitchell and Patrick Marleau Fan Club
RIP Atlanta Thrashers. Welcome to the NHL, Atlanta Thrashers of Winnipeg.
I have to concrete proof to back it up to say that these deaths and fighting are directly related, other than the 3 people who lost their lives were all fighters. It definitely could very well be just a coincidence, and you’re right, it’s all conjecture to say this causes this at this point. But I do know from my own personal experiences that I feel like nothing but shit after a fight or shouting argument, regardless of winning or losing it.
"It was good to get banged and give a few bangs." - Jonathan Cheechoo
Hockey fights are different from arguments
There’s no question, the lifestyle of being a hockey enforcer played a part here. But correlation and causation are not the same thing. These men, perhaps should not have been enforcers because to be an enforcer requires more than simply brute strength, but also requires a certain mental make-up. I am in no way, shape or form saying that it’s okay what happened to these men. It’s tragic and sad. But there are so many failings at so many different levels that contributed here, that to say that fighting needs to be taken out of hockey seems so narrow and ignorant of the complexities surrounding their lives and their deaths.
It’s not that these men were fighters. It’s that these men needed help, and they never got it.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
It’s not that these men were fighters. It’s that these men needed help, and they never got it.
Exactly this. Well said.
I love Dany Heatley for his fantastic acting chops and his permanently dilated pupil.
by HeatersLeadingLady on Sep 2, 2011 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m sorry, but I missed the concrete proof. Feeling like shit after fighting/shouting may be the case, but that’s not what’s at stake here.
These players had personal issues, like drugs or depression. I’m not quite sure what issues Belak was dealing with, but again… I’m hesitant to blame anything on fighting in hockey.
It wouldn’t disappoint me if fighting was taken out of the game. The NHL’s reputation would be better, and there would be more focus on the offensive part of the game (which is what makes hockey exciting for me). But I refuse to blame fighting for the deaths of these players. Sure, there’s no way fighting is going to be good for one’s health. But by no means does that say that it resulted in the deaths of 3 players.
"Logan Couture is a dirty, filthy man. Tell all your friends" - Mr. Plank
Member of the Torrey Mitchell and Patrick Marleau Fan Club
RIP Atlanta Thrashers. Welcome to the NHL, Atlanta Thrashers of Winnipeg.
I like MMA/boxing, am I no longer a dignified human being?
UP THE PUCKS!
"This is a good time to come together and raise our middle finger in the air." - Dan Boyle
by TheSoundOfHockey on Sep 1, 2011 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions
They’re professionals, and play it as an art with intricate skill and technique. Huge difference. Two guys going at it out of not sport, but pure anger, is ridiculous to compare man. (although I personally hate both)
"It was good to get banged and give a few bangs." - Jonathan Cheechoo
I disagree.
Example here. (00:43 is where the important part is)
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
Yeah, it seems like the players have fun with it.
I remember when I was at the game Tootoo got Staubitz’d. After the fight, Staubitz skated by Jody Shelley with a smile and winked at him.
Flugenweb. Spacecode. Twitzone. Assmode.
"The last time I made a video in a hotel room…..very different than this." – Drew Remenda
2010-2011 FTF 2 Fantasy Hockey CHAMPION
Just to be clear, if fighting in hockey went away, I would be perfectly happy because it’s not essential to the game I love.
But knee-jerk reactions unsupported by data and without consensus isn’t warranted here.
Somebody better be really clear about what kind of camp
Tommy Wingels has to show up for in September
@shampeon
International Olympic Rules
if implemented, would solve the majority of head injury occurances, and the rates of other injuries would drop significantly.
This includes the larger ice.
Would also grow the hockey fanbase. The Olympics themselves proved that.
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
Really?
The Olympics themselves proved that.
The Olympics proved that a larger sheet of ice would improve the fanbase? Are you sure the success of the Olympics is due to the size of the ice rather than the fact that the rosters are full of the best hockey players in the world?
The 2010 Olympics (including the highest rated international hockey game since 1980) were played on NHL regulation size ice rather than IIHF standards.
Top o' 209
Yeah. You nailed it.
Flugenweb. Spacecode. Twitzone. Assmode.
"The last time I made a video in a hotel room…..very different than this." – Drew Remenda
2010-2011 FTF 2 Fantasy Hockey CHAMPION
Including the larger ice, not just the larger ice.
What I said was that using Olympic Rules, including the larger ice, would solve the majority of head injury occurances, and the rates of other injuries would drop significantly.
Another benefit of using Olympic Rules would be an increase in the hockey fanbase, which was proved during the Olympics.
Is that clearer?
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
Another benefit of using Olympic Rules would be an increase in the hockey fanbase, which was proved during the Olympics.
I’m not sure I follow.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
Biathlon is far more popular during the Olympics.
That must mean that Olympic-rules Biathlon has a huge fanbase.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions
How about the strict checking rules that the Olympics uses? The viewers enjoyed hockey being played by NHL players using Olympic rules.
Many potential hockey fans are turned off by the fighting and “hits” in pro hockey because it interferes with them learning the actual game.
Those insisting that it is part of the game and always part of the game, are also along the lines of those who were against helmets.
My point is to make one think of both sides of the injury/head injury problems, issues and potential addresses to those problems and issues.
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
I still don't follow.
The viewers enjoyed hockey being played by NHL players using Olympic rules.
Most viewers enjoyed Olympic hockey because of national pride. That was the main attraction. If the NHL had Olympic rules that doesn’t necessarily mean more viewers. It’s not like the Olympics didn’t have nasty stuff either (examples here and here)
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
Also throw in
VASTLY superior skill sets there.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
The Olympics had very little “nasty stuff”, as the officials put an early stop to most of it.
I actually didn’t throw the Olympic Rules out there as an argument, but as an extreme possibility; a suggestion for folks to ponder.
Odds of it happening are very low, for the time being. The future? Who knows? If it does, it would be from extreme measures for injury reduction. It might take someone dying on the ice for them to even begin to take such drastic measures.
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
I enjoy watching the IIHF games— and I love the Olympics— but I honestly think the NHL refs (for the most part) maintain a pretty good balance on the rough stuff throughout the season.
We’re not trying to convince you that the IIHF rules aren’t good, just that the NHL brand is better suited for the North American audience. You can look at the other three major sports in N. America and the NHL has each one beat at their own respective selling points: NHL is faster, more brutal, more energetic than the NFL; it is more calculated, and more skill-oriented, than MLB; and it is more flashy (without being thug) than the NBA.
The only thing that the NHL really needs to improve their fanbase is better marketing skills and I think they have been improving in that area slowly since the lockout.
Top o' 209
stfu
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Sep 5, 2011 3:50 AM PDT up reply actions
The more I think about it...
The more I think of how much it must suck to be an “enforcer” on an NHL team. The organization basically tells those players, “Look, you’re a pretty awful player, so you’re only going to play a handful of minutes a game…and all you get to do is go start shit and punch people.”
For a player who loves the game of hockey to be relegated to such a role just because that’s the only way they can make an NHL roster must just be such a psychological blow.
Counterpoint
Kids dream growing up to become professional hockey players. If throwing punches means playing in the NHL, they’d be willing to do it.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
and to add to that, they clearly have accepted their role since they are choosing to stay in the NHL.
GO SHARKS!
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin (see profile for more info on this quote)
These three cases cast some shadow
on the “clear” acceptance issue. I don’t think it’s symptomatic of EVERY enforcer, but coaches, teammates, family and friends need to start understanding what these guys are going through, and recognizing the warning signs.
For every 10 George Parros like players who seems to accept their role, there could be someone like Belak or Rypien or Boogard for whom it carries a genuine toll that could result in tragedy.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
I could see your point
and sort of agree. Maybe some of these players were already wanna be bad asses and not that happy of people to begin with (just saying maybe). I look at some of these guys out there and say “man this enforcer or that enforcer looks like such a douche, asshole, etc”. Maybe pushing them to be more of a beast on the ice can lead some of these guys to carry it over into their personal lives. The percentage of players who can’t handle their role is still most likely really low though.
But anyway, in the end only those that were closest to Belak have a clue to what he was going through or went through and why.
QFT
in the end only those that were closest to Belak have a clue to what he was going through or went through and why.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
by idunno723 on Sep 1, 2011 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Another counterpoint.
I’d love to make $500k a year to warm the bench for 55 minutes a night AND be paid to stay in great shape.
I’d be more than ecstatic to make a mere $60k right out of school.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 1, 2011 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
How about if you got beat in the head so much you had health problems? That couple of million net seem so good now?
Somebody better be really clear about what kind of camp
Tommy Wingels has to show up for in September
@shampeon
Yes.
If my pain endurance puts my kids through college and gets me a lovely home, sign me up!
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 1, 2011 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Easy to say, harder to do. Getting a MS in computer science will net you more money over your career than an NHL enforcer, and you’ll be able to play with your grandkids. Just sayin’.
Somebody better be really clear about what kind of camp
Tommy Wingels has to show up for in September
@shampeon
Hahahaha.
Computer science. What is this, 1987? IT jobs are incredibly hard to come by, especially good ones. And as a counterpoint, yes, I’d rather get beat in the head than waste 10 years of my life on a computer science degree.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 1, 2011 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm. Not here in the Bay Area. If you’re taking 10 years to get a masters, then maybe it is a waste.
I still stand by my statement that I’d rather work for 35 years and play with my grandkids than get beat for a living for 3.
Somebody better be really clear about what kind of camp
Tommy Wingels has to show up for in September
@shampeon
LOL WHAT
I’d rather hold the Stanley Cup over my head and feel what it’s like to be in the Big Show. I’ve played for many years (nowhere near NHL), and I can tell you that I would take injury over a quite, futile existence playing with computers any day.
Hockey is a passion, a love, and a lifestyle for myself, friends and family. Fixing computers/networking or whatever you do? Not so much.
You missed the point.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
by idunno723 on Sep 2, 2011 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't you usually post that baseball picture to demonstrate this?
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Not the thread for such silliness.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
Oh. Guess you're right.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions
You assume several things
1.) that people aren’t allowed to be passionate about computers
2.) that living at less than full health for potentially 30-50 years is not equally futile
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
by ElvisVF101 on Sep 3, 2011 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Man, fuck living.
Nerds.
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Sep 5, 2011 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions
People with computer science degrees can do more than IT
They can, you know, design computers and computer programs. There’s HUGE differences between computer science and IT.
Getting an MS may teach that.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Oh.
Well, in any event, I’d still rather be an enforcer than spend that much time in a university. That was my overall point. Computer type-ish jobs may be common in the Bay Area, but they’re rare as hell in Canada. It’s one of those degrees you just avoid. So maybe IT wasn’t the proper terminology. My bad. :D
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
If you're meant to avoid CS in Canada
Then there’s larger problems up north…
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Canada has pleanty of high-tech jobs.
For example, I’m in automation and robotics. I’m basically learning how to design and build, well, anything automated, from assembly lines to vending machines. It’s a great trade. It’s one of the most in-demand fields right now (because they want to replace the workers that keep striking, obviously). There aren’t computer jobs in Canada because the previous generation has them all locked up. I’m not sure if it’s the same in the States, but the Canadian economy tends to have generational focuses on a certain field of work. The Boomers were largely into the skilled trades, which meant that skilled trade jobs weren’t available to the Gen Xers. The Gen Xers then pursued more high-tech jobs, just computer science and IT stuff. The Boomers are now starting to retire, so us Gen Yers are best off looking into the trades. University jobs are incredibly hard to come by, as the previous generation is holding all the positions.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 3, 2011 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions
The guts of all the things that you're describing
Are computer science. I’m a mechanical engineer myself. And more and more, the heart of what we do is computer based.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Oh yeah?
I’m TECHNICALLY in electromechanical engineering (I say automation and robotics, since it’s easier to understand for people who aren’t in automation). There is lots of work with computer, yes, but I ultimately prefer the hands-on end of things. Can’t wait ‘til 3rd year when I get to build my own automated cell. It’ll be amazing. Mechanical engineering is REALLY math-y though. XD I could never be so involved with numbers.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 3, 2011 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I feel you
Coding makes me want to poke my eyes out, but all our calculations, and all the brains of our best machines require it. There’s a very real ceiling if you don’t embrace being a code monkey at some point.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
I haven't gotten much into the programming yet.
But what I have done, I’ve really enjoyed it, because I can see a physical response to data I’ve entered. That works for me. What I CAN’T do is sit in front of paper or a computer crunching numbers that have no direct application. That may be a folly of the way math is taught: I need to see exactly what the math is working towards to understand how to use it. There’s a huge difference between “Find X” and “Calculate the proper input voltage at node B”. But that’s the great thing about college vs. university, your math has a purpose. It’s not all theoretical.
SO STOKED TO START YEAR TWO ON TUESDAY.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 3, 2011 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Also:
Since you’re in mechanical, I have a question for you. I took a mechanical engineering class last semester called Statics, are you familiar with it? I really seemed to struggle with some of the equations used with it, since most of the problems seemed to have really simple answers that could be done with some quick mental computing. Most of the guys in my program had problems with it. Is it supposed to be common sense stuff, or are these long equations actually necessary?
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 3, 2011 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I would say it's relative...
being an enforcer looks good when compared to the job you have now (and I have now, too, I suppose), but when you are an enforcer, the jobs you compare yours to are very different—your world is different—than it is from ours; all things being relative, an enforcer position isn’t as desirable when you’re surrounded by highly paid, somewhat famous centers and wingmen who get more adulation and less physical punishment…
By Grabthar's hammer and the hands of Zeus, I shall avenge thee.
Enforcer role especially sucks when
you add in all of the discussion about banning fighting. Day 1 of a fighting ban effectively ends 100+ professional careers at the NHL and minor league level. Yes, it would open up the same number of roster spots for “skill players”, but the negative effect on enforcers would outweigh the positive effects on all of the Joe Shlabotniks who finally get the call-up.
For the aspiring skill player, they have been told that they are just not ready yet, that they need to improve this or that, and then they may be able to crack the roster. I’m sure it sucks to be told that, but for many it is a positive motivator. They can each decide whether they have a legitimate chance and if struggling in obscurity is what they want to do.
Compare to the enforcer, who has been told that they only way they could make the roster was if they played that role. They bought in and seized that chance, and now the door has been slammed in their face. They are good enough at the role they play, but no one wants players like them anymore. They most likely can’t re-tool their careers to still make the roster. Their careers are over and it’s not because of anything they did. It’s like being the best buggy-whip maker in the world.
Maybe they could phase in a no-fighting rule like they did the helmet rule. You can only fight if you were drafted before 2012. Put an “F” on their helmets or something. Since enforcer careers are often short, it wouldn’t take that long. In a few years, a couple of older guys would drop the gloves, and kids would say “wow, a hockey fight! I’ve heard about those.”
Depression is probably the one of the most serious illness there is in pro sports.
And I rate this as dangerous as concussions. Pro athletes get paid millions. But they’re human. They have ups and downs. Most can’t seem to realize that. And it’s easy to put on a happy face, and Belak was damn good at that. But a smile is the best disguise for a tormented inside….
"I think he just dedicated a Cee Lo Green song to the referee"-Randy Hahn and Drew Remenda on Randy Carlyle yelling at the referee
I never forget a face, but in your case, I'd be glad to make an exception-Groucho Marx
by sanjosesharksfan on Sep 1, 2011 10:09 PM PDT reply actions
Odd coincidence...
I had never heard of Richard Cory until I heard this Freakonomics podcast this week. All about suicide and its causes.
I think it's ridiculous to attribute all these deaths to any one cause.
And even more ridiculous to eliminate fighting and hitting entirely. Hockey is not soccer. It’s not a bunch of sissies prancing around the playing field diving and making pouty faces. If you take out anything that might cause physical harm, what are you left with? Let’s face it, these guys millions of dollars to entertain us. They know the risks, and they accept them to be filthy-rich. That’s the nature of the business. I can fucking guarantee you there are plenty of jobs more deadly than being a hockey player. Like a cop. Or a convenience store worker on graveyard shift. And they don’t make anywhere close to what these guys do.
Yes, it’s tragic that hockey players die, but it’s not solely because of physical contact. Rypien may have committed suicide (I’ve only heard about the depression thing, not the actual cause of death). Boogard combined pills and alcohol (may not have even been intentional, this kind of poisoning is not rare). Yes, it’s tragic that Marc Savard and Eric Lindros will never play again. Maybe Sidney Crosby won’t, either. But again I reiterate, these men are multimillionaires. Any sort of premium medical treatment they need, whether mental or physical, is spare change to them. That’s the way it is. Now show me more bench brawls, dammit!
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 1, 2011 10:52 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm sorry
But this attitude right here is a huge part of the problem.
Yes, one of the things I love about hockey is that Western Canadian value system of playing hurt and being the strong, silent type.
But you know what, it doesn’t do much for people who have issues. If it’s true that Rypien and Belak took their own lives, all the Prarie Reserve in the world isn’t going to do shit for them. Hockey has deliberately made itself a bit of a closed culture. And that’s fine. But the assumption that everyone needs to man up ignores the physical and mental toll of being a hockey player.
Yes, these men get paid decent money. But to assume that everyone gets multi-million dollar contracts is stupid. To assume that they are all living it up is stupid. What’s the average career for an NHLer? Are we assuming that everyone will play as long as Chelios and Lidstrom and Howe? Are we assuming everyone gets paid like Ovechkin and Richards?
This sort of judgmental attitude serves no one, and only adds to the problem.
If anything, this situation shows anything, it’s that money doesn’t solve anything. So to say that because these men are rich, they don’t need help is simply ignorant.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
by ElvisVF101 on Sep 2, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Never said they don't need help.
I’m saying that injuries are, and should be, part of the job. But I’m also saying that they more-than-likely have access to proper treatment, a luxury many other risky professions don’t have. In regard to the culture of the NHL, yes, people need to be more open in discussing mental health issues, amoung other things. I certainly don’t disagree there. But I certainly oppose changing the game because of a few isolated cases. Even if you took out contact entirely, I’m sure there would still be incidences of concussions and mental health problems. Sports are a tough business. That’s why people pay good money to see them.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Access is not the issue here
If access was the issue, we wouldn’t be talking about culture.
The reason culture is an issue is because it tends to discourage people from seeking help, or keeps them ignorant as to what they might need help for.
Contact will always be part of the game. But if that’s the case, it needs to be partaken of by people who know what they’re doing. This is on the players, the coaches, the league, management, everyone.
Saying that these men “accept the risks to be filthy rich” implies they have full knowledge of what playing the game will mean long term. If this off-season has shown anything, it’s that there are consequences people haven’t even begun to think of.
There’s a reason informed consent is such an issue in the practice of medicine.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
You talk about these guys as if they have Madoff-type money
They make millions but if they are living in the bay area even part of the year then that could be used up very quickly. Fighting in hockey just seems more and more strange to me each time I really think about it. It is truly rare to see an all-out fight in the NFL but for some reason it’s accepted in a sport where they give a trophy out partly for the being a gentleman.
Hard body checks are totally different from punches and it seems illogical to assume that they would throw the baby out with the bathwater in this situation. I will complain about them getting paid so much and not working hard but will have no problem with those paychecks staying where they are even if fighting goes the way of the dodo. They works hard without punching each other in the nugget and potentially breaking their hands or doing damage to their vision. Block a shot and lose an eye, that’s just the nature of the beast. Fight and get your eye orbit cracked and a possible traumatic cataract? That seems totally unnecessary to me.
I don’t know how much pressure these guys are under or how it effects them mentally , but I have been in very stressful situations for extended periods of time and I can tell you it had a negative effect on the condition I already had and created a new one. I don’t know how these guys feel when one of their own dies like this but I had a colleague that committed suicide and it made me feel like 2 cents. You see a person everyday and you just don’t know what’s going on in that head, then they are gone. I think in that situation, if a few changes had been made, things would be different now. If taking fighting out of the game takes some stress of these guys then that’s one more reason to add to the rapidly growing pile of reasons why fighting should be removed from game.
by Montyburnz!...1 on Sep 2, 2011 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree with your stance on fighting, but...
In regard to your last paragraph, I do think it’s strange that people don’t know their coworkers all that well. I work in a store employing about 8 people, and we’re all pretty tight. We talk about our problems, and work through them so they don’t affect our work. I know in hockey and other sports, there’s this attitude that talking about your feelings makes you a pussy, and THAT needs to die. THAT is more harmful than fighting. Playing hockey is often compared to combat, brothers in arms and all that crap, so these guys “live and die” beside each other. Does it make sense to anyone else that these guys should maybe get to know each other better?
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Hockey is not like combat
but that doesn’t make a players pain any less valid than a soldier or veteran. I talk to people that watch The Sharks and really can’t understand why fighting is in the game. I don’t have any real way to express the value of it in any way that they understand. Yeah, it may pump the team up, but I have seen plenty of games where the team playing the aggressor still loses. Those fights get me jumping up and down while making me hope that the person I am cheering for doesn’t get hurt; why not just cut the unnecessary risks out of a game that would be just as thrilling without the goons and bullshit posturing?
by Montyburnz!...1 on Sep 2, 2011 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Honestly...
I think it’s more an frustration thing. I’m sure everyone gets a bunch of pent-up rage working around someone they hate. In hockey, you’ll allowed to express it rather directly. FAKE fights are stupid. But there’s definitely a purpose in beating the shit out of a guy your team is pissed off at. The emotion rallies the team to be equally aggressive with their play. At least that’s how I see it.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions
People do dangerous shit on the ice. Some of it is illegal, but isn’t called. Some of it is legal. When players stop respecting each other on the ice, there needs to be a confrontation.
by meetyourmako on Sep 3, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Check out this article from earlier today by George Laraque. It sheds some light from an enforcers perspective.
Leslie Knope: "...but it has a lot of heart."
April Ludgate: "That's what people always say when something sucks."
Fear The Fin's Fifth-String Moderator !!
I read that article. He seems to understand that there's a problem,
but he uses the ‘jobs’ claim to say fighting still shouldn’t be banned because they’d drop 75 players from the roster. I admit that he lost me there, but I can understand he doesn’t want to raise the ire of former teammates by suggesting they be cut.
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
I think they're gradually phasing it out.
Before the lockout, there were a lot more tough guys in the league. I mean, Tie Domi was probably Toronto’s most popular player all through the 90’s and early 00’s. Once the new CBA came into effect, the game was faster, fluffier, and let players like Crosby, Kane and Savard thrive (skilled little guys without much physical presence). Nathan Gerbe does not make the NHL pre-lockout, I guarantee.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 6, 2011 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it about the money though?
It seems like many people lose pity for these guys because “they make a lot of money”. I find that a bit unfair, and quite ridiculous.
"Logan Couture is a dirty, filthy man. Tell all your friends" - Mr. Plank
Member of the Torrey Mitchell and Patrick Marleau Fan Club
RIP Atlanta Thrashers. Welcome to the NHL, Atlanta Thrashers of Winnipeg.
Depression is a nasty thing. I’ve always had mixed feelings about it.
My Mom was sexually abused by many, including her step-father, when she was young. To say she had a bad childhood would be putting it highly mildly. My father didn’t treat her much better. When I was about 9 / 10 yrs old my Mom tried to kill herself a few times. Each time I happen to miraculously save her. Don’t know how I just would know to go inside at the right time, but if I hadn’t each time, she wouldn’t be here now.
Tho she gave up trying that approach, it didn’t make life easier. Even tho alive, she’s never been happy and I always have wondered if I was selfish in saving her, did I do it for myself or for her. Yeah I know I was young, but she’ll never be un-depressed.
My mixed feelings about depression – about parents that commit suicide – they are cowards. My Mom was a coward. Even tho my Mom lived, I still, too many years later, go “what the fuck did I do wrong”, and now Belak’s children are going to do the same. Selfish.
But depression is a nasty thing. I do understand why my Mom did it. She couldn’t find a way out.
GO SHARKS!
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin (see profile for more info on this quote)
Did anyone in the family seek professional counseling?
Specifically, existential therapy. It’s a theory of psychology that forces you to confront your problems and come to terms with them. I think it’s the most effective thing for people that basically hate themselves.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 1, 2011 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
My family is anti-all that nonsense. Actually tho, my sister just got a degree in some social nonsense and I refer to it as a soft degree. :)
GO SHARKS!
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin (see profile for more info on this quote)
Hmm...
My dad committed suicide when I was 9. Like you, I still sometimes wonder “what did I do wrong” or “what could I have done to prevent it”?
But, I know logically, that the answer to both of those is “nothing”.
However, I don’t consider my dad or really anyone that commits suicide a coward. I think that anyone who feels that death is the only way out, and is a better option that living, is really sick. It’s an illness, and they need help.
I will be walking in a suicide prevention walk this October in memory of my dad. I have done it for 3 years now. This year, however, I was planning to put Cavanaugh’s number on my back. Now I am adding Rypien and Belak’s numbers, since those two both have been reported as suicides.
I wish I didn’t have to :(
I love Dany Heatley for his fantastic acting chops and his permanently dilated pupil.
by HeatersLeadingLady on Sep 2, 2011 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
It’s not just an illness. It could be an imbalance of chemicals in the brain just as easily.
My best friend shot himself 13 years ago. His was depression in addition to hopelessness and an inability to focus long enough to look for help.
I’ll walk that walk with you in spirit!
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
Thank you!
There are walks around the country. I can send you info if you’re interested. :)
Sorry to hear about your best friend :(
I love Dany Heatley for his fantastic acting chops and his permanently dilated pupil.
by HeatersLeadingLady on Sep 3, 2011 9:04 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Uh.
I like my goals like I like my booze..... Top shelf.
by GhostOfLinkGaetz on Sep 5, 2011 3:52 AM PDT up reply actions
It's surely selfish
But that doesn’t change the fact that it happened, and that it means something for everyone affected by it. It doesn’t mean that those who survive should seek help.
It’s just as selfish for those affected by the suicide and depression of others to not seek help because it’s simply easier to continue to blame them.
There’s actual hard science and stuff supporting catharsis and processing and all that soft science stuff.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
selfish?
It isn’t selfish. Well, maybe sometimes if the person is just trying to get out of something (a crime punishment, Wall Street in the ’20’s, etc).
Others could have an illness that affects their thinking, dropping them into despondence, or have a chemical imbalance that affects them to the point that they literally don’t know what they’re doing.
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
In cases of impared judgement, no, not necessarily selfish
And I acknowledge that these things are real and do happen.
But, speaking from a strictly moralistic point of view, I do tend to view suicide as a selfish act.
As to where the line is when someone is truly impared beyond the ability to stop themselves from harming themselves, I’m probably nowhere near qualified to speak to that.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
You do have a point. Suicides can be many things, such as:
a way out
an escape
a cure
an accident (suicide thought of but not intended, wrong mix of meds/alcohol, a cutter who unintentionally made the deep cut, a suicidal person in a daze and dies accidentally because of inattention to a danger, and unintentional by those who strangle themselves for self-pleasure and die as a result),
a thought, mindlessly carried out in a daze
a solution
a search
brain damage and/or chemical imbalance where the person has no clue what they’re doing
a selfish act (“I’ll show them” type of thing)
and on the other extreme, an intentional act done to save other lives that might be in jeopardy
and probably a slew of other things.
I’ve known several people who’ve suicided,
1 was a classmate’s younger brother, reasons unknown to me, was thought to be a regular auto accident, but they found a note in the mangled remains,
1 was a classmate who suicided after high school, reason unknown to me, possible causes could’ve been not being able to live up to the very high standards set by her family, which could’ve been an escape,
1 was a neighbor who was drunk and shot up his house, then shot himself after the cops got there, teargassed the house, and the house caught fire, an escape,
1 was a recent acquaintence who was clinically depressed and very despondent, but in a daze had carried out something he had thought of earlier,
and 1 was my best friend who had several major problems hit him at once, 4 on the same day (his last day), and saw no help, a solution. The help was available, but he got so despondent that he just didn’t see it.
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
Two cents
I doubt that the suicides of Cavanagh, Rypien and Belak are unrelated to their marginalization in their respective squads. Obviously the former two had well documented mental health issues, but it doesn’t take a psychologist to make the conjecture that low self-esteem on account of low hockey productivity can’t possibly be an asset to one’s mental health. Cavanagh’s case in particular seemed to bear the marks of such a connection. The saddest part is that all three were beloved by fans (who couldn’t smile when Tom got a point on his first shift? I remember it like it was yesterday). Cavanagh and Belak’s careers were effectively over, and Rypien’s was looking like it was headed that direction. I know plenty of people here in Silicon Valley that either suffered or are suffering mental depression on account of being laid off, so it’s not hard for me to imagine the angst that a hockey player would feel, millions of dollars or not.
Fear The Fin = Man goes into cage... Cage goes into salsa... Shark's in the salsa... Our shark.
by Mr. K. on Sep 1, 2011 11:33 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Tragic...
Just dealt/dealing with a family suicide for the last couple weeks myself, all I can say is that it leaves more questions then answers. My condolences to the families.
Im looking it as, If you are brought up being a hockey player and the zenith of everything is being in the NHL, there isnt really much post NHL education can help with in transition on ‘retiring’ while one is in their prime to someother life. Its like a idenity from childhood that is no longer there. Can the NHL or a Shrink really help that, or just dely the inevitable?
It is easy for me to say I wouldnt have a problem with it because I can live with less, but can they?
Very tragic, they will be missed for sure…
My condolences to you and your family.
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
Thank you.
Did you hear about Gibson being raided? Crazy times man..
by sharkblood99 on Sep 2, 2011 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Crazy! How does Fish & Wildlife even have anything to do with wood? Are guitar makers supposed to make plastic guitars now?
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
Let's raid Winchester for having wooden stocks on their guns.
Wait, that’s never going to happen.
Strange priorities.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Too true.
Shouldn’t Customs be the ones going after “illegal imported wood”?
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
In practical terms, this is only about protected wood species being imported to the US. Unless Winchester is importing rosewood, ebony, or mahogany lumber, they’re not in any danger of getting raided.
Somebody better be really clear about what kind of camp
Tommy Wingels has to show up for in September
@shampeon
Gibson got raided because they think Gibson may be using rosewood fretboards that were illegally exported from India. There’s some technical details that might be relevant about what constitutes lumber and what is a finished wood product. It may be a documentation issue between Gibson and their supplier in India.
The current law puts the onus on wood importers to ensure that what they’re importing was done legally in the country of origin. This was done to close the loophole where importers would just choose to remain ignorant of the legality of their imports.
Fish & Wildlife is involved because they’re apparently dealing with trade in exotic species.
Somebody better be really clear about what kind of camp
Tommy Wingels has to show up for in September
@shampeon
Oh.
Wow, I’m actually completely impressed that someone down there is enforcing business ethics. If I look at it that way, I totally agree with F&W.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 3, 2011 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m sorry for your loss sharkblood99.
Waiting for the Cup to come to SJ since 1991...
GO SHARKS!
Find me on Twitter @njahoda
My condolences
And if you’re comfortable, my prayers as well.
As to your question about delaying the inevitable, I’d certainly hope the NHL and professional help would be able to help men like this. By and large, hockey players ARE making the transition.
But these deaths show that these men needed help, and they simply didn’t get it.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
Thank you.
Yeah, I hope they can find a way to help players anyway they can
by sharkblood99 on Sep 2, 2011 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Mental illness is a serious, yet sad issue...
I myself have suffered from depression for many years now, but am lucky to be on good meds that keep me stable, perhaps I call them my “happy pills.”
Its very sad indeed… unnecessary passings from things that are not easily handled. My heart goes out to those who suffer and my prayers go out to those who are fighting it.
"Sometimes the only sense you can make out of life is a sense of humor!"
Believing in Team Teal since 2009. Go Sharks!!!!
by Catstoy on Sep 2, 2011 11:21 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
There are so many causes
and too many who don’t understand, don’t want to understand, or just ignore those affected. Sadly, this continues,…
If you mention ending your life, or show signs of self-harm, I will take you seriously!
"Take a deep breath sometimes, a break, and play some hockey. Hockey is a great way to take a pause from day-to-day hard work." -- Lt Gen. D.H. Huntoon Jr. (paraphrased)
"He doesn't miss many of those!" --Randy Hahn
Shameless plug for my music.
These men clearly needed help with issues they were having off the ice. It would definitely help if the NHL and NHLPA started educating players and even offering help to those who want it. But that’s the issue, those who want help will seek it… but not all who need it will.
You can bring hockey culture into it, but I doubt that players will openly admit to being depressed. Partly because it may be seen as “weak”, but much more because they may just be embarrassed about it or not want to seek help. That’s what makes this situation so sad. It makes you wonder if, even if they’d been offered help, the results would’ve been different.
"Logan Couture is a dirty, filthy man. Tell all your friends" - Mr. Plank
Member of the Torrey Mitchell and Patrick Marleau Fan Club
RIP Atlanta Thrashers. Welcome to the NHL, Atlanta Thrashers of Winnipeg.
Do these hockey clubs staff mental health professionals?
As a comparison, I know that all the school counselors, mental illness centres and other things I sought out as a kid and teen were incredibly helpful. Well, the ones that weren’t pushing pills, I mean. These are people trained to help you when you’re on an emotional low. They can either help you talk out your problems, or direct you to the proper doctors and professionals that can. If something like this exists in the NHL, is it conspicuous? I feel like things could at least improve a little if there was an attitude that promoted getting the proper help. But I don’t know one way or another.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 2, 2011 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know how many teams employ either a psychiatrist or a psychologist full time
Nor do I know if any teams keep one on retainer the way most teams keep a surgeon or an orthopedist and other such specialists. This will hopefully be one of the changes that comes about after this offseason if it’s not the case.
GO SHARKS!
They're not getting this kind of coverage at "Hockey Night In Canada" folks! - Randy Hahn
Changing signatures is for suckers.
What Jay Leach is to the San Jose Shark's Defense, I am to Fear The Fin's Mod Squad.
I've had this idea before
and it always strikes me as a good one. Some players and fans might feel that it’s counter-cultural (although the coarsest might not call it that… instead they might call it “unmanly”), but in time I think it would soften up some rough edges and even open up communication lines.
By Grabthar's hammer and the hands of Zeus, I shall avenge thee.
There's nothing more manly than self-improvement.
Though to be honest, it’s hard to say what manly is these days. Toronto men seem to be more concerned with fashion and clubbing than hockey or family. >_> If that makes someone a man, then venting about your emotional problems must be the equivalent of tearing down a tree with your fists and using it to kill a plane mid-flight.
The artist formerly know as *"Sharks_Fan_In_Toronto"*
"Those of you who volunteered to be injected praying mantis DNA, I have some good news and some bad news: bad news is we've postponed these test indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men! Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts."
by Evil Stanchion on Sep 4, 2011 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Very Sad to hear
Thoughts and prayers to his family. I just hope this leads to some answers when studies are performed.
Go Big or Go Home
by ChangoT on Sep 2, 2011 10:36 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
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